Scrimmage Kick Bruhaha

[mikesears]

Let's get our minds revved up again.

Play:
4/10 at the 50-yard line. Team K snaps the ball with 5 players in the backfield. K1's punt is high but somewhat short. K2 released downfield at the snap and the ungrounded kick hits him in the back at R's 30-yard line. R1 was coming up to make the catch but had to stop so he didn't run into K2. The kick hits the ground at R's 32-yard line where R3 picks the ball up and begins running with it. During this run, R4 is flagged for holding at R's 35-yard line. R3 goes out of bounds at R's 40-yard line. After the play, R5 is flagged for a dead ball personal foul.

Options?

[Jim D.]

This doesn't get my mind reved up, it gives me a headache.

OK, K is guilty of illegal formation at the snap.
K is guilty of KCI at R 30.
R gets possession with clean hands.
R fouls at R35.
R has a dead ball PF.

Since it was a change of possession and R got the ball with clean hands, they can keep the ball if they decline both the illegal formation and the KCI penalties.

R is penalized 15 yards from the spot of the foul during the run (R's 35) which will put them at their own 20. Now the dead ball PF is administered, which moves R back to their own 10. 1st & 10 for R, clock starts on the snap.

The other option for R is a replay of the down, but with the live ball fouls offsetting, it would still be 4th & 10 for K. The dead ball penalty would give K a first down so R wouldn't go with that choice.

[jaybird]

R got the ball with "clean hands" and can keep it by declining both K fouls. R can not use the spot of first touching because they subsequently fouled.
K will take the penalty for holding enforced from R's 35 to the R 25. DB foul enforced half the distance to the R 12 1/2. R 1/10 @ R 12 1/2, snap.

[With_Two_Flakes]

I'm with jaybird, 1 & 10 from the 12 1/2 sounds right to me.

[Jim D.]

You all are right of course - holding is 10 yards which moves R back to his 25. The dead ball is 1/2 the distance which goes to the 12 1/2.

[Robert Goodman]

Huh...so in nobody's code is there the choice of an awarded fair catch + 15 yds. from the spot of the KCI? That'd seem to be an advantageous choice for R, which following the dead ball PF would leave them at their own 30 yard line -- if that is indeed an allowed choice.

[golfnref]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Huh...so in nobody's code is there the choice of an awarded fair catch + 15 yds. from the spot of the KCI? That'd seem to be an advantageous choice for R, which following the dead ball PF would leave them at their own 30 yard line -- if that is indeed an allowed choice.

If R accepts a penalty against K, K could then accept the holding penalty against R making it a double foul and replay the down. Then as Jim D. stated the dead ball foul against R would give K a first down. In order for R to keep the ball, they have to decline K's fouls.

[Ed Hickland]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Huh...so in nobody's code is there the choice of an awarded fair catch + 15 yds. from the spot of the KCI? That'd seem to be an advantageous choice for R, which following the dead ball PF would leave them at their own 30 yard line -- if that is indeed an allowed choice.

Check out 10-2-2b, R must decline K's fouls to keep the ball.

[Texas Aggie]

NCAA: same as what Ed said -- R must decline K's fouls. Holding enforced from the 35 to the 25, then half the distance for the dead ball foul. No reason to give choices, just explain the result. First and 10 from R's 12.5.

[Ed Hickland]

This brings up one of my pet peeves. When I first started as an R I used to say "if you decline this penalty, or, if you accept this penalty" and it felt really stupid after a while as most penalties declination is a bad choice. Now that does mean I must determine if there is a reason to decline. Then I read Jerry Markbreit who said don't let them make a bad choice.
Now when I'm working a sub-varsity game and another official is the R it really bothers me to hear them give that stupid, "if you decline" option. Say it's a pass interference, "Captain if you decline, you have not be able to replay the down and it will be 3rd and 37 or accept the penalty and its 1st and 10." C'mon, why even mention what happens if you decline, in fact, just tell him, "Captain, first and ten," and move on.

[Sonofanump]

Originally Posted by Ed Hickland

when I'm working a sub-varsity game

Originally Posted by Ed Hickland

I read Jerry Markbreit who said don't let them make a bad choice.

I agree.

It make no sense to "consult" with the captins if a choice is clear. I would just tell them they want the foul and move on.

I worked with a white hat a few times in subvarsity ball who would inform the captains in the pregame, that when it came to penalties, he would give them their "best" option first. I wish I had a play like the OP so I could see what his "best" option would have been, LOL.

Speaking of bizarre, I had a play (3-man crew) where I flagged B1 for defensive holding just a couple yards off the line, and then stayed with B1 and A1 as they headed downfield where A1 committed intentional pass interference, dropping my 2nd flag. After the catch, B1 grabs A1 and runs him OOB and body slams A1, so I threw a bean bag at the OOB spot. A1 jumped up, threw the ball at him, calling him several expletives, at which time I dropped my hat. By time, white hat could get there, B's coach was running out of the box screaming "toss his f**king a** out of game!" So dropped my other bean bag at the spot. After restoring order, white hat's first comment: "dude, I thought you were putting on a strip show!" LOL

[golfnref]

Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch

I worked with a white hat a few times in subvarsity ball who would inform the captains in the pregame, that when it came to penalties, he would give them their "best" option first. I wish I had a play like the OP so I could see what his "best" option would have been, LOL.

Speaking of bizarre, I had a play (3-man crew) where I flagged B1 for defensive holding just a couple yards off the line, and then stayed with B1 and A1 as they headed downfield where A1 committed intentional pass interference, dropping my 2nd flag. After the catch, B1 grabs A1 and runs him OOB and body slams A1, so I threw a bean bag at the OOB spot. A1 jumped up, threw the ball at him, calling him several expletives, at which time I dropped my hat. By time, white hat could get there, B's coach was running out of the box screaming "toss his f**king a** out of game!" So dropped my other bean bag at the spot. After restoring order, white hat's first comment: "dude, I thought you were putting on a strip show!" LOL

Belt comes next!!

[stratref]

Info card or whistle first, my belt takes too long to put back on.

Jasper

[jjrye22]

My shoes whould be before my belt - my knickers are a little loose, and if my belt goes... Well...