Ravens/Steelers game

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by pmarz1

Simple question for both of you. Watch this cliphttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1ssVchGUm0)
particularly the part starting at the 50 second point, and tell me how what you just watched was not leading with his helmet. Let's take your spin on it. If MaGahee hadnt "put his head in there", where would Clark's helmet have landed? Oh, that's right, it wasnt his helmet, it was his shoulder, I forgot.

Please realize that when a tacklers leads with his shoulder the head is usually in close proximity. Like Bison said, this definitely was not 'leading with the head'.

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by pmarz1

Simple question for both of you. Watch this cliphttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1ssVchGUm0)
particularly the part starting at the 50 second point, and tell me how what you just watched was not leading with his helmet. Let's take your spin on it. If MaGahee hadnt "put his head in there", where would Clark's helmet have landed? Oh, that's right, it wasnt his helmet, it was his shoulder, I forgot.

Actually, if you stop the video at 0:53 you will see that the initial contact is shoulder to shoulder. Also you can see the helmet contact does not involve the crown of either player. The receiver takes a hit to the face mask mostly because he "dropped" to protect himself and the defender's point of contact is in the side (just about directly on the team logo). That's probably why you saw both players down. The receiver due to the whiplash effect of the hit (see his head snap back?) and the defender becase a shot like that to the side of the head can knock you out just as easily. So, you don't have a defenseless player (who braced for the hit), you don't have a hit with the crown, and you don't have initial helmet to helmet contact. Why should there be a flag?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Actually, the announcers did an excellent job of explaining why a "no call" was the correct call, and they used the replays to support their observation and analysis.

I agree.

Originally Posted by daggo66

The initial contact was with the shoulder, period, end of story, sorry your team lost.

Originally Posted by Mike L

Actually, if you stop the video at 0:53 you will see that the initial contact is shoulder to shoulder. Also you can see the helmet contact does not involve the crown of either player. The receiver takes a hit to the face mask mostly because he "dropped" to protect himself and the defender's point of contact is in the side (just about directly on the team logo). That's probably why you saw both players down. The receiver due to the whiplash effect of the hit (see his head snap back?) and the defender becase a shot like that to the side of the head can knock you out just as easily. So, you don't have a defenseless player (who braced for the hit), you don't have a hit with the crown, and you don't have initial helmet to helmet contact. Why should there be a flag?

Incorrect. Watch the video is slower motion. . . the head of the ball carrier jerks back ever so slightly before his shoulder does. The only way that this happens is when the initial contact was made helmet to helmet.

[daggo66]

Originally Posted by pmarz1

13. A tackler using his helmet to butt, spear, or ram an opponent.

14. Any player who uses the top of his helmet unnecessarily.

These are two rules infractions resulting in a 15 yard penatly. The replay clearly shows Clark leads with the crown of his helmet, not his shoulder as some here would like to believe, striking MaGahee between the front and side of his helmet. Those two rules apply to defensive players for those of you wondering why runningbacks/recievers can lead with their helmet and defenders can't.

References please?

[pmarz1]

Originally Posted by daggo66

References please?

Dagg,

This is the site I initially found when tracking down the rules. http://football.calsci.com/TheRules3.html

I've since found a site that actually has the official NFL rulebook(2006)
http://blogmedia.thenewstribune.com/...20RULEBOOK.pdf

Specifically, Rule 8 item g. page 82, that specific rules reads:

Impermissible
Use of
Helmet and
Facemask

( g) using any part of a player’s helmet (including the top/crown and forehead/“hairline” parts)
or facemask to butt, spear, or ram an opponent violently or unnecessarily; although such
violent or unnecessary use of the helmet and facemask is impermissible against any opponent,
game officials will give special attention in administering this rule to protecting those
players who are in virtually defenseless postures (e.g., a player in the act of or just after
throwing a pass, a receiver catching or attempting to catch a pass, a runner already in the
grasp of a tackler, a kickoff or punt returner attempting to field a kick in the air, or a player
on the ground at the end of a play). All players in virtually defenseless postures are protected
by the same prohibitions against use of the helmet and facemask that are described
in the roughing-the-passer rules (see Article 11, subsection 3 below of this
Rule 12, Section 2);

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by pmarz1

13. A tackler using his helmet to butt, spear, or ram an opponent.

14. Any player who uses the top of his helmet unnecessarily.

These are two rules infractions resulting in a 15 yard penatly. The replay clearly shows Clark leads with the crown of his helmet, not his shoulder as some here would like to believe, striking MaGahee between the front and side of his helmet. Those two rules apply to defensive players for those of you wondering why runningbacks/recievers can lead with their helmet and defenders can't.

Originally Posted by daggo66

References please?

Originally Posted by pmarz1

Dagg,

This is the site I initially found when tracking down the rules. http://football.calsci.com/TheRules3.html

I've since found a site that actually has the official NFL rulebook(2006)
http://blogmedia.thenewstribune.com/...20RULEBOOK.pdf

Specifically, Rule 8 item g. page 82, that specific rules reads:

Impermissible
Use of
Helmet and
Facemask

( g) using any part of a player’s helmet (including the top/crown and forehead/“hairline” parts)
or facemask to butt, spear, or ram an opponent violently or unnecessarily; although such
violent or unnecessary use of the helmet and facemask is impermissible against any opponent,
game officials will give special attention in administering this rule to protecting those
players who are in virtually defenseless postures (e.g., a player in the act of or just after
throwing a pass, a receiver catching or attempting to catch a pass, a runner already in the
grasp of a tackler, a kickoff or punt returner attempting to field a kick in the air, or a player
on the ground at the end of a play). All players in virtually defenseless postures are protected
by the same prohibitions against use of the helmet and facemask that are described
in the roughing-the-passer rules (see Article 11, subsection 3 below of this
Rule 12, Section 2);

Great, you found a rule but it still doesn't back your assertion the the offense can not be guilty of leading with the helmet.

Can you share with is what clinics you've attended where these rules have been discussed and interpreted? (Joe Buck, Troy Aikman, Phil Simms, John Madden and the like are not credible sources.)

[daggo66]

Originally Posted by pmarz1

Dagg,

This is the site I initially found when tracking down the rules. http://football.calsci.com/TheRules3.html

I've since found a site that actually has the official NFL rulebook(2006)
http://blogmedia.thenewstribune.com/...20RULEBOOK.pdf

Specifically, Rule 8 item g. page 82, that specific rules reads:

Impermissible
Use of
Helmet and
Facemask

( g) using any part of a player’s helmet (including the top/crown and forehead/“hairline” parts)
or facemask to butt, spear, or ram an opponent violently or unnecessarily; although such
violent or unnecessary use of the helmet and facemask is impermissible against any opponent,
game officials will give special attention in administering this rule to protecting those
players who are in virtually defenseless postures (e.g., a player in the act of or just after
throwing a pass, a receiver catching or attempting to catch a pass, a runner already in the
grasp of a tackler, a kickoff or punt returner attempting to field a kick in the air, or a player
on the ground at the end of a play). All players in virtually defenseless postures are protected
by the same prohibitions against use of the helmet and facemask that are described
in the roughing-the-passer rules (see Article 11, subsection 3 below of this
Rule 12, Section 2);

Ok, let's pretend this game was played in 2006, since those are the rules you are referring to. The rule you cited pertains to unnecessary roughness on a defenseless player. That means it relies on the official's judgement. I'm thinking the judged the hit was not unnecessary and that the runner was not defenseless. Next.

[pmarz1]

Originally Posted by daggo66

Ok, let's pretend this game was played in 2006, since those are the rules you are referring to. The rule you cited pertains to unnecessary roughness on a defenseless player. That means it relies on the official's judgement. I'm thinking the judged the hit was not unnecessary and that the runner was not defenseless. Next.

daggo, you obviously skipped over the first part of this rule:
"although such violent or unnecessary use of the helmet and facemask is impermissible against any opponent" and chose to focus on the defenseless part. If you have a link to more current rules, please post them, and while you're at it, reference even in the most general terms where in your rules leading with your helmet while tackling is allowed.

[daggo66]

Originally Posted by pmarz1

daggo, you obviously skipped over the first part of this rule:
"although such violent or unnecessary use of the helmet and facemask is impermissible against any opponent" and chose to focus on the defenseless part. If you have a link to more current rules, please post them, and while you're at it, reference even in the most general terms where in your rules leading with your helmet while tackling is allowed.

I didn't skip anything. You must apply the rule in it's entirety and you must apply the correct rule. The one you choose deals with unnecessary roughness. You can't pick and choose parts of it. Leading with the helmet is never allowed. Again, as myself and others have stated, initial contact is the key.

[pmarz1]

Originally Posted by daggo66

I didn't skip anything. You must apply the rule in it's entirety and you must apply the correct rule. The one you choose deals with unnecessary roughness. You can't pick and choose parts of it. Leading with the helmet is never allowed. Again, as myself and others have stated, initial contact is the key.

daggo, you seem to be breaking your own rules now. You wrote:"The rule you cited pertains to unnecessary roughness on a defenseless player." Correct me if I'm wrong but doesnt this rule apply to all players, not just defenseless ones? It goes on to state the officials may place special attention to defenseless players, etc....true?

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by pmarz1

daggo, you obviously skipped over the first part of this rule:
"although such violent or unnecessary use of the helmet and facemask is impermissible against any opponent" and chose to focus on the defenseless part. If you have a link to more current rules, please post them, and while you're at it, reference even in the most general terms where in your rules leading with your helmet while tackling is allowed.

Beautiful when non-officials tell the officials what the rules mean.

[pmarz1]

Originally Posted by waltjp

Beautiful when non-officials tell the officials what the rules mean.

this is why officials and officiating in general gets criticized as it does. Officials like yourself think you are the only people on the planet with reading comprehension skills. Still waiting for anyone to post something that resembles a fact that leading with your helmet, regardless of whether the player recieving the hit is defenseless or not, does not constitute an infraction.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by pmarz1

( g) using any part of a player’s helmet (including the top/crown and forehead/“hairline” parts)
or facemask to butt, spear, or ram an opponent violently or unnecessarily; although such
violent or unnecessary use of the helmet and facemask is impermissible against any opponent,
game officials will give special attention in administering this rule to protecting those
players who are in virtually defenseless postures (e.g., a player in the act of or just after
throwing a pass, a receiver catching or attempting to catch a pass, a runner already in the
grasp of a tackler, a kickoff or punt returner attempting to field a kick in the air, or a player
on the ground at the end of a play). All players in virtually defenseless postures are protected
by the same prohibitions against use of the helmet and facemask that are described
in the roughing-the-passer rules (see Article 11, subsection 3 below of this
Rule 12, Section 2);

The irony is that the parts of the body contacted by an opponent's helmet in a manner like this are rarely injured seriously thereby. Injuries delivered by head hits are more commonly of the fluke kind, like head-on-knee. It's the player delivering the hit via the head who is in the far greater danger, because of what that can do to that player's own neck.

Robert