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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 05, 2008, 12:39am
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I would like to gather a room full of coaches and ask them two questions:

1. Did you know coaches that football is played by fallible humans and that it is possible that you could lose the biggest game of your career due to an error by one your human players such as them dropping a ball?

The heads would nod and wonder why I aksed such a stupid question.

2. Did you know coaches that football is officiating by fallible humans and that it is possible that you could lose the biggest game of your career due to an error by one of the human officials such as them blowing their whistle accidentally?

Then shock would set in as the coaches expressed disbelief, anger and starting to imagine the lawsuit that they would have to bring (of course in Canada they would not imagine the lawsuit because here if you spill coffee on yourself you don't get any money...)

It is interesting that coaches can understand the answer to the first question but not the second even though the answers are identical and for the same reason!
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 05, 2008, 02:00am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JugglingReferee View Post
If the call on the field isn't reversed, the only right thing to do is to award co-champions.

I believe that's the wrong thing to do. You can't reverse the call, because players stop playing when they hear a whistle. The defense stops defending and that could very well have led to the touchdown. And you can't award "co-champions" as only one team won.

The rules are quite clear to do in that situation, and it seems like they did it. You can't reverse the call on the field. You have to address it the same way you'd address an inadvertent whistle on the opening kickoff of the first game of the year. This shouldn't be protestable as it's not a misapplication of rules, it's a judgment call made by the officials, yes it may have been bad judgment, but it's still a judgment call. And kudos for the Ref for not revealing who blew it. The official probably feels like **** because of it, and you don't need to pour salt on the wound by selling out a member of your crew to the coaches. I'm pretty sure those on the crew know who blew it. And I'm hoping he had to cover the hefty bar bill that was part of the post game.

Let he who has never blown an inadvertent whistle cast the first stone.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 05, 2008, 08:41am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ref18 View Post
I believe that's the wrong thing to do. You can't reverse the call, because players stop playing when they hear a whistle. The defense stops defending and that could very well have led to the touchdown. And you can't award "co-champions" as only one team won.

The rules are quite clear to do in that situation, and it seems like they did it. You can't reverse the call on the field. You have to address it the same way you'd address an inadvertent whistle on the opening kickoff of the first game of the year. This shouldn't be protestable as it's not a misapplication of rules, it's a judgment call made by the officials, yes it may have been bad judgment, but it's still a judgment call. And kudos for the Ref for not revealing who blew it. The official probably feels like **** because of it, and you don't need to pour salt on the wound by selling out a member of your crew to the coaches. I'm pretty sure those on the crew know who blew it. And I'm hoping he had to cover the hefty bar bill that was part of the post game.

Let he who has never blown an inadvertent whistle cast the first stone.
So early in the season you're going to not tell a coach who had the IW? Tell me again why he doesn't have a right to know, especially when there is often a system in place where coaches rate officials.

Many US high school systems work like this. There's a league called the OVFL where coaches grade officials. Are you saying that a crew should hide who blew an IW so that the coach doesn't have a chance to issue a downgrade to that individual?
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 05, 2008, 09:58am
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Absolutely, for several reasons. First, IW is a mistake, albeit a big mistake, that affects one play out of 100+ that comprise a game. It is highly doubtful that will be the only mistake your crew will make that game.

Second, we function as a crew and every mistake we collectively make is attributed to our crew. A crew MUST function as a unit to be successful.

Third, from an officiating perspective, the biggest problem resulting from an IW, is getting the official who made that (big) mistake to get past making it and back into working the game. Prolonging that period of self review/self doubt only detracts from the ability of the crew to do it's job.

Fourth, identifying the official will ONLY serve to prolong the effect his mistake will have on his ability to function properly for the remainder of the game, and 999 sidelines, out of 1,000, will rub as much salt as possible into that official's hide, especially if it's a wing official.

Fifth, throwing a fellow crew member "under the bus" will do little to minimize the effect that one IW has on crew ratings (all crew ratings) and will deminish whatever level of respect the offended sideline may have had for the officiating crew (the entire crew).

As with any any discussion with the sideline explaining any unusual, or unfortunate, situation the tone should be businesslike, matter of fact and reflect the proper ruling. Identifying the specific official serves no constructive purpose and raises the possibilities of having to deal with subsequent problems that would be otherwise totally avoidable.

Coaches ratings are what they are, worrying about them during a game or adjusting your performance to influence them is a fool's pursuit and can create a lot more damage than any benefit.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 05, 2008, 10:12am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wwcfoa43 View Post
I would like to gather a room full of coaches and ask them two questions:

1. Did you know coaches that football is played by fallible humans and that it is possible that you could lose the biggest game of your career due to an error by one your human players such as them dropping a ball?

The heads would nod and wonder why I aksed such a stupid question.

2. Did you know coaches that football is officiating by fallible humans and that it is possible that you could lose the biggest game of your career due to an error by one of the human officials such as them blowing their whistle accidentally?

Then shock would set in as the coaches expressed disbelief, anger and starting to imagine the lawsuit that they would have to bring (of course in Canada they would not imagine the lawsuit because here if you spill coffee on yourself you don't get any money...)

It is interesting that coaches can understand the answer to the first question but not the second even though the answers are identical and for the same reason!
I don't buy this so much: too many disanalogies, at least for HS football.

1. Only the officials are adults.
2. Only the officials have had years of training.
3. Only the officials get paid (well, security too).
4. Only the officials are officiating.

By that last one I mean that the players are actually playing the game, and if they make mistakes that's part of the game. When officials screw up, that's a disruption of the game.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 05, 2008, 10:15am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron View Post
I don't buy this so much: too many disanalogies, at least for HS football.

1. Only the officials are adults.
2. Only the officials have had years of training.
3. Only the officials get paid (well, security too).
4. Only the officials are officiating.

By that last one I mean that the players are actually playing the game, and if they make mistakes that's part of the game. When officials screw up, that's a disruption of the game.
Oh my mistake (insert sarcasm):

1. Adults don't make mistakes. (!)
2. All officials have years of training at officiating. (What about the officials who are new!)
3. Getting paid means you don't make mistakes. (I wonder what's wrong with the people I work with at my day job then...)
4. Not even sure what #4 implies.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 05, 2008, 10:50am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron View Post
I don't buy this so much: too many disanalogies, at least for HS football.

1. Only the officials are adults.
2. Only the officials have had years of training.
3. Only the officials get paid (well, security too).
4. Only the officials are officiating.

By that last one I mean that the players are actually playing the game, and if they make mistakes that's part of the game. When officials screw up, that's a disruption of the game.
I understand what wwcfoa43 is saying but I agree there is a difference between players and coaches. First, we don't have an opponent that can cause us to make errors. Second, our mistakes are mostly mental while players mistakes can be both mental and physical. Even if our mistakes could be deemed physical (looking in the wrong place, being in the wrong position, blowing an IW), they are caused my mental errors.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 05, 2008, 11:03am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bisonlj View Post
I understand what wwcfoa43 is saying but I agree there is a difference between players and coaches. First, we don't have an opponent that can cause us to make errors. Second, our mistakes are mostly mental while players mistakes can be both mental and physical. Even if our mistakes could be deemed physical (looking in the wrong place, being in the wrong position, blowing an IW), they are caused my mental errors.
Players can make mistakes without opponents being involved. A wide open receiver can drop a pass after all.

There are many factors that go into who wins the game. Sports would be different if the assumption was made that all players will execute perfectly, that the weather will cooperate, that no one will be injured, ... , and that yes officials will work a perfect game.

The team tries to ensure that their players play to their potential but there are no guarantees.
The players will try not to get injured but their are no guarantees.
The home team will try to make the weather or other environmental conditions not a factor (by say shoveling the snow off the field) but their are no guarantees and we have had to play on snow covered fields and it is a factor.
And yes the officials will try and work a perfect game but again there are no guarantees.

To expect that all the possible factors are "part of the game" EXCEPT that the officials errors are not part of the game but should be expected to be perfect is naive in my opinion.

While participants should not necessarily be happy about any of the impacts on the outcome, they should understand that they can happen and not be incessed.

Last edited by wwcfoa43; Fri Dec 05, 2008 at 11:20am.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 05, 2008, 11:14am
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I saw John Madden tell a story about the difference between coaches and officials that has stayed with me. At a pre-season game following Madden's Super Bowl Raiders victory, he showed Jim Tunney, that Super Bowl Referee, his ring.

Tunney questioned why Madden got a ring the size of an ashtray, and he got a commerative wrist watch. Madden replied, "because you didn't care who won". That difference answers a lot of questions, some good, some bad depending on perspective.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 05, 2008, 11:15am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JugglingReferee View Post
So early in the season you're going to not tell a coach who had the IW? Tell me again why he doesn't have a right to know, especially when there is often a system in place where coaches rate officials.

Many US high school systems work like this. There's a league called the OVFL where coaches grade officials. Are you saying that a crew should hide who blew an IW so that the coach doesn't have a chance to issue a downgrade to that individual?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajmc View Post
Absolutely, for several reasons. First, IW is a mistake, albeit a big mistake, that affects one play out of 100+ that comprise a game. It is highly doubtful that will be the only mistake your crew will make that game.

Second, we function as a crew and every mistake we collectively make is attributed to our crew. A crew MUST function as a unit to be successful.

Third, from an officiating perspective, the biggest problem resulting from an IW, is getting the official who made that (big) mistake to get past making it and back into working the game. Prolonging that period of self review/self doubt only detracts from the ability of the crew to do it's job.

Fourth, identifying the official will ONLY serve to prolong the effect his mistake will have on his ability to function properly for the remainder of the game, and 999 sidelines, out of 1,000, will rub as much salt as possible into that official's hide, especially if it's a wing official.

Fifth, throwing a fellow crew member "under the bus" will do little to minimize the effect that one IW has on crew ratings (all crew ratings) and will deminish whatever level of respect the offended sideline may have had for the officiating crew (the entire crew).

As with any any discussion with the sideline explaining any unusual, or unfortunate, situation the tone should be businesslike, matter of fact and reflect the proper ruling. Identifying the specific official serves no constructive purpose and raises the possibilities of having to deal with subsequent problems that would be otherwise totally avoidable.

Coaches ratings are what they are, worrying about them during a game or adjusting your performance to influence them is a fool's pursuit and can create a lot more damage than any benefit.

ajmc has the right idea. We go out there as a crew, and we need to make sure we have eachother's backs. We have to stick up for ourselves, and in most IW situations it's pretty evident who blew that whistle. In this one, it isn't. We succeed as a crew, we fail as a crew, we make mistakes as a crew. When someone makes an amazingly good call, you don't go tell the coach which official made it so he can be praised. Why would you do the same when someone screws up. He has to make it up to the crew somehow, but, you as the WH need to be responsible when the coach is involved. And selling out one of our own, one of the only 6 guys out there who will have your back when you **** up isn't the way to do it.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 05, 2008, 11:33am
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Assuming the state governing body were to do an investigation into the incident or request a report from the crew, would those of you who are advocating the "black and white wall" still condone not divulging? I hope not

I can understand the reluctance in the heat of the moment to single some one out but the bottom line is, the crew knows who had the whistle (or else there was NO whistle). And if that guy does not ball up and tell the coach himself then that guy is the guy I will not be working with again. If you do not have the moral courage to admit your mistakes then you really ought to think about your future in this endeavor.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 05, 2008, 12:08pm
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Unless you're in a State that has way too many people involved in HS sports, nobody is thinking about any kind of "investigation" might be necessary to determine who made what mistake. If however, some governing body were to ask that question, obviously, they deserve an answer.

A coach is entitled to know that a mistake was made and what effect that mistake has on the the circumstances that will follow. Being told there was a mistake is all the information that is necessary, and there is no need, whatsoever, for anyone to, "ball up and tell the coach himself ", becaue it just doesn't matter.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 05, 2008, 01:02pm
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I will tell you who it IS important to (or should be anyway)... to the guy who made the call. It SHOULD be important enough to him that he not leave the rest of his guys hanging out there and taking heat for HIS mistake.

And I guarantee you that if a championship game in Texas ended like this, there would be inquiries from the state governing association. There is an "Incident Reporting System" and something like this would be something ythey expect to be reported.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 05, 2008, 01:06pm
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I agree that a white hat or a crew 'throwing a crew member under the bus' would be a negative, but look at it the other way.

What the hell kind of person are you if you don't stand up and take responsibility for your own actions and mistakes?

I hate that I blew an IW in back to back years in the same game between the same two teams (at least the first year it favored one team, the next year it favored the other*). But I admitted it and that was part of me getting past it. The other part of me getting past it was knowing that (a) almost everybody who's ever done this has kicked a big call or blown an IW or just majorly goofed up and that (b ) it doesn't define you as a person. If it makes you re-examine your mechanics or your ability to do this, that's part of the self-assessments we ALL should make as human beings.

So I have less of a problem with a crew or crew chief trying to protect a crew member in the short term (I don't know what kind of effect that's going to have long term) than I do with the person who blew the IW not saying "It was me."

I guess you could say "Don Denkinger is still reviled 23 years later," and maybe you'd have a point that you'd have to live with that attached to your name for a while.

But is it better or worse to only have it on your conscience?


*I'm kidding. It doesn't even out.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 05, 2008, 04:08pm
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Of course we don't know all of the particulars, but it appears (based on what was written in the article) that the official that did blow the IW (if there really was one) didn't even own up to it to his fellow crew members - that is what is inexcusable to me. Furthermore, for an official to compromise the integrity of officials everywhere simply to "save face" is also inexcusable. Either way - seems like a pretty horrible situation to me.

But, for my vote, I would say that the state should accept the results of the game as the officials decided it - there really would be no way for them to prove whether a whistle was blown or not.
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