Hasn't happened yet, but.......

[Mike51]

NFHS Some smart coach could use this to his advantage.

4th quarter. Team A up by one point, with 45 seconds remaining. Both teams out of time outs and the ball is on the A 5 yard line. It is fourth down and 7 yards to go and the clock is running. (3rd down was a running play that ended inbounds)
The ball is marked ready for play with 45 seconds remaining, so if the clock gets to 20 delay of game will be called.
As the play clock winds down to less than 5 seconds, the game clock is now under 25 seconds left in qtr.
Now A66, a tackle, commits a false start. This stops the clock and no matter if B accepts or declines, the clock starts on the ready and the clock runs out preserving the win for B.

Now I know that 3-4-6 says that the referee can order the clock started or stopped if a team attempts to consume or conserve time illegally.
My question is, is this a judgment call for the Referee? What if he determines that it was not intentional, should A get the win without having to snap the ball one last time.

Coaches can be clever and getting a player to false start intentionally and make it look unintentional is not very hard.

Any thoughts on this?

[Mike L]

Yes, it's a judgement call. And that's why we get the big bucks. In this particular situation, you'd have a real tough time convincing me that it wasn't intentional. I'd be starting the clock on the snap. Get that punt team out coach.

[Sonofanump]

On the snap.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: Agree. That clock would never start on the ready if I was wearing white. Mike L. said it best: "Get out the punt team, coach."

[bossman72]

My HS coach did (and still does) uses this tactic on naive officials. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Additionally, (non-official's opinion) you should read what "mode" the offense is in (say, inside 4 minutes or so left in the game). If the offense is in "hurry up and score" mode, start the clock according to the rules. If the offense is in "eat up clock" mode, start it on the snap.

[MJT]

Originally Posted by bossman72

My HS coach did (and still does) uses this tactic on naive officials. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

In my opinion, this is a coach with poor morals. He will do it if he can get away with it. Great lesson to teach his players, who unfortunately may feel they should "do whatever they can get away with" in other area of life as they get older.

[OverAndBack]

Originally Posted by MJT

In my opinion, this is a coach with poor morals.

In other words, "a coach?"

I keed, I keed.

[Theisey]

Team-A's delay foul... I'm not winding the clock at all.
Let'm false start all they want after that.. The clock is not going to be run until they snap it.
The Referee and "crew" have to recognize this delay was for one purpose and to invoke the clock rule exception as I call it right then and there.

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by MJT

In my opinion, this is a coach with poor morals. He will do it if he can get away with it. Great lesson to teach his players, who unfortunately may feel they should "do whatever they can get away with" in other area of life as they get older.

Would you say the same thing about a coach who teaches his kids to hold until the officials call it? I actually think that is a decent technique for coaches to see how technical the crew will be. Push the envelope and find out what you can get away with.

[aschramm]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

Would you say the same thing about a coach who teaches his kids to hold until the officials call it? I actually think that is a decent technique for coaches to see how technical the crew will be. Push the envelope and find out what you can get away with.

I'd have to agree with this one. Even though I'm an official and not a coach, had I been a coach I'd probably push the envelope and see what I get away with. It all comes down to what a crew calls week by week and if you have crews in your area who are not consistent with others, the coach will try and take advantages of differences, whether it be this or if a player doesn't have correct padding around a cast, doctors note, etc.

[ajmc]

Sorry guys, but teaching student athletes to "do whatever they can get away with" is what someone who is either lazy or just not good enough to teach correctly resorts to.

Teach a kid to block, and eventually he'll learn how to hold, teach a kid to hold and he'll NEVER learn how to block. Teams make mistakes, every game, that might give them a temporary unfair or unearned advantage, that's part of the game.

There's a word for deliberately looking for unfair, unearned advantages by teaching, "Push the envelope and find out what you can get away with. ", it's called "cheating", and whether you're caught or not doesn't lessen the disrespect you show to your players, your school and the game.

[Forksref]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

Would you say the same thing about a coach who teaches his kids to hold until the officials call it? I actually think that is a decent technique for coaches to see how technical the crew will be. Push the envelope and find out what you can get away with.

Have to strongly disagree. As a former coach and currently an official, I believe that I am here to teach more than X's and O's but how to handle life. Those crooks on Wall Street must have had the above-mentioned type of coach as a role model when they were young.

As for the original post, after the first play, the clock won't ever start until there is a live snap. False starts are dead ball fouls and there won't even be 1 second allowed to tick.

[aschramm]

Originally Posted by Forksref

Have to strongly disagree. As a former coach and currently an official, I believe that I am here to teach more than X's and O's but how to handle life. Those crooks on Wall Street must have had the above-mentioned type of coach as a role model when they were young.

As for the original post, after the first play, the clock won't ever start until there is a live snap. False starts are dead ball fouls and there won't even be 1 second allowed to tick.

Nice to see everyone's input. I don't want to come on here and look unethical (the baseball board already tried to pin that on me), but I am saying that I could definitely see coaches pushing the envelope, especially in places where there is alot of pressure to win. I personally don't condone it, but I'm sure it's done in many places.

[ajmc]

'm pleased to see that you consider teaching student athletes to deliberately circumvent the rules of the game something you don't condone, but why are you so "sure it's done in many places"?

Sadly, I've seen what I might think are sporadic examples of it being done, but I've never been convinced that it's "condoned" rather than something caused by ignorance, frustration, desperation or a temporary loss of logic.

If you see it, you need to address it immediately right there on the spot, as inconspicuously as possible, but the person suggesting such tactics needs to be instructed that what he is teaching is wrong, will absolutely not be tolerated and if repeated, or carried out, will be dealt with harshly and reported.

[Blue37]

Originally Posted by ajmc

If you see it, you need to address it immediately right there on the spot, as inconspicuously as possible, but the person suggesting such tactics needs to be instructed that what he is teaching is wrong, will absolutely not be tolerated and if repeated, or carried out, will be dealt with harshly and reported.

I would not worry about being inconspicuous.

At a middle school game earlier this year, the winning team taunted the defense after yet another touchdown. We immediately flagged the taunting, but the losing coach did not think that was sufficient. He yelled to his players to "Punch him in the mouth if he does that again."

I immediately took an official's timeout and had a talk with him in front of his bench. I kept my voice at a conversational level and turned my back to the bench area while we were talking so as to keep the discussion private, but everyone on that sideline knew why I was there. After explaining the error of his ways, I had him call his team to the sideline so he could tell them he said it in frustration and they were not to follow through on the instruction. I took the opportunity, while he talked to his team, to move to the other sideline and discuss the USC with the winning coach. He had already pulled the offender from the game and we did not see him again that afternoon.

No more problems from either side. Had I let it go, however, who knows what might have happened.