Where to enforce?

[Mike51]

NFHS 1st and ten from A30. TE is held trying to get off the LOS. QB is eventually tackled at the A20, loss of ten yards. Where would the penalty for holding by B be enforced from? End of run or previous spot?

TIA

[kdf5]

Fouls by the defense are always enforced from the basic spot which in this case is the end of the run. By coincidence you end up 1st and 10 again. Had the QB fumbled behind the LOS, you would have gone back to the previous spot to enforce.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Mike51

1st and ten from A30. TE is held trying to get off the LOS. QB is eventually tackled at the A20, loss of ten yards. Where would the penalty for holding by B be enforced from? End of run or previous spot?

TIA

CANADIAN RULING:

Holding is a minor foul and if committed prior to the first down, is applied from PLS. Result: Team A 1D/10 @ A-40.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by kdf5

Fouls by the defense are always enforced from the basic spot which in this case is the end of the run. By coincidence you end up 1st and 10 again. Had the QB fumbled behind the LOS, you would have gone back to the previous spot to enforce.

There was a thread earlier that says that if A knows the flag is against B, to purposely fumble in order to change the enforcement spot of the penalty.

[kdf5]

If you can find one kid in the several million or so playing football with that much awareness and rules knowledge in the middle of a play like that I want to meet him.

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by kdf5

If you can find one kid in the several million or so playing football with that much awareness and rules knowledge in the middle of a play like that I want to meet him.

REPLY: And if you can find that kid, he hopefully has the smarts to purposely fumble it backwards so that it can't be interpreted as an illegal forward pass.

[ajmc]

No matter how careful, or smart, the player is he should understand that footballs have a habit of bouncing in strange ways, and the guarantee of recovering a fumble is never better than 50%. Seems like a prohibitive risk, to avoid losing 10 yards.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by ajmc

No matter how careful, or smart, the player is he should understand that footballs have a habit of bouncing in strange ways, and the guarantee of recovering a fumble is never better than 50%. Seems like a prohibitive risk, to avoid losing 10 yards.

But he doesn't need to recover it as B has unclean hands.
________
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[fljet]

there is a few nfl qb who may have the presence of mind and the physical skill to pull that off, but I doubt there are too many kids who would have thought to do that

[insatty]

All action from the snap until a pass is complete or incomplete is considered a loose-ball play. (10-3-1-b-Note) The basic spot for loose-ball plays is the previous spot. (10-4-2-b) Thus, this defensive-holding call is enforced ten yards from the previous spot. NCAA is the same result because the pass didn't cross the neutral zone. Had the pass crossed the neutral zone, then 10 yards from previous spot and automatic first down in NCAA. (9-3-4-b)

[kdf5]

Originally Posted by insatty

All action from the snap until a pass is complete or incomplete is considered a loose-ball play. (10-3-1-b-Note) The basic spot for loose-ball plays is the previous spot. (10-4-2-b) Thus, this defensive-holding call is enforced ten yards from the previous spot. NCAA is the same result because the pass didn't cross the neutral zone. Had the pass crossed the neutral zone, then 10 yards from previous spot and automatic first down in NCAA. (9-3-4-b)

I agree with what you said but if you are talking about the original play, there was no pass.

[insatty]

Kdf5: Whether there was a pass or not, it was still a pass play (NCAA)/loose-ball play (NFHS). Consider this play: QB drops back to pass and primary receiver is pulled down by defender; QB is sacked. Enforce DH from previous spot because this was a pass play/loose-ball play.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by insatty

Kdf5: Whether there was a pass or not, it was still a pass play (NCAA)/loose-ball play (NFHS). Consider this play: QB drops back to pass and primary receiver is pulled down by defender; QB is sacked. Enforce DH from previous spot because this was a pass play/loose-ball play.

Seriously? They read the intent of the play? I'm sure it can be a loose ball play only if the ball is loose during some interval. And last I saw in NCAA, it's a pass play only if a forward pass is thrown; probably has to be a legal one too, I forgot.

Robert

[kdf5]

Originally Posted by insatty

Kdf5: Whether there was a pass or not, it was still a pass play (NCAA)/loose-ball play (NFHS). Consider this play: QB drops back to pass and primary receiver is pulled down by defender; QB is sacked. Enforce DH from previous spot because this was a pass play/loose-ball play.

Here is the definition of a loose ball play (NF):

10-3-1.... A loose-ball play is action during:
a. A free kick or scrimmage kick, other than those defined in 2-33-1a.
b. A legal forward pass.
c. A backward pass (including the snap), illegal kick or fumble made by A
from in or behind the neutral zone and prior to a change of team possession.
NOTE: The run(s) which precedes such legal or illegal kick, legal forward pass, backward pass or fumble is (are) considered part of the action during a loose-ball play.

It doesn't say it's a loose ball play simply because the QB called a passing play in the huddle, the pass actually has to happen for you to classify it as a LBP. If the passer gets off a pass then when the smoke clears, everything between the snap and the subsequent catch or the ball hitting the ground or getting intercepted is part of a loose ball play.

[MJT]

Originally Posted by insatty

Kdf5: Whether there was a pass or not, it was still a pass play (NCAA)/loose-ball play (NFHS). Consider this play: QB drops back to pass and primary receiver is pulled down by defender; QB is sacked. Enforce DH from previous spot because this was a pass play/loose-ball play.

That is incorrect, and as kdf5 has stated, it comes down to understanding definitions.