Shifts

[newref1]

Is it a shift when offensive lineman go from a two point stance to a three point stance? They have their elbows on their knees, the Qb says down and the linemen then put their hand on the ground. And if it is a shift where is this specifically in the rule book. The rule book says you have to move to anew position. is that "moving." And is that a new position. I thought it meant you have to change positions on the field. And when this happens does a running back have to wait for those linemen to be set a second before he goes in motion. Thank you.

[daggo66]

Don't add words to the definition. It says: "A shift is the action of one or more offensive players who, after a huddle or after taking set positions, move to a new set position before the ensuing snap."

The running back does not have to wait for the linemen to be set before he goes in motion, however if he does go in motion while they are moving, they (including the RB) must all become set for 1 second before the snap.

[newref1]

Originally Posted by daggo66

The running back does not have to wait for the linemen to be set before he goes in motion, however if he does go in motion while they are moving, they (including the RB) must all become set for 1 second before the snap.

Would that be because the running back is part of a shift? In order to be legally in motion when the ball is snapped does the running back have to wait one second until after the linemen are down to begin his motion? Or can he just go in motion anytime after the linemen are down (at a point less than one second.) This all seems really picky no matter how you cut it but I had an older official tell me all this so I just want to know

[Jim D]

If the running back goes in motion before the line has been set for at least one second after they go down, you will most likely have an illegal shift penalty. If the back starts too soon, the only way out would be for the man in motion to stop and then, after all 11 offensive players have been set for second, he could start in motion again.

[newref1]

Thanks. That makes sense. Now all I have to is figure out why this is that important. I find it hard to believe that whether the back does or doesn't wait until the linemen are set before going in motion somehow affects the defense. Maybe it just looks confusing to them. But thanks.

[Jim D]

Originally Posted by newref1

Thanks. That makes sense. Now all I have to is figure out why this is that important. I find it hard to believe that whether the back does or doesn't wait until the linemen are set before going in motion somehow affects the defense. Maybe it just looks confusing to them. But thanks.

Since you have newref as a name, allow me to say this. As an official, it is not up to you to decide if or how this is important. In other words, it's important because the wise and wonderfull folks who make up the rules decided it was important. Don't get caught up in the trap of trying to decide what the rules should be - it's not your job, it will only frustrate you, and you'll end up a poorer official because you'll be erratic in your enforcement.

I assume this is illegal because it would be confusing to the defense. In any case, this is a no-brainer. All 11 A players have to be set for at least a second becore a back can go in motion.

[daggo66]

Originally Posted by newref1

Thanks. That makes sense. Now all I have to is figure out why this is that important. I find it hard to believe that whether the back does or doesn't wait until the linemen are set before going in motion somehow affects the defense. Maybe it just looks confusing to them. But thanks.

That particullar part of it is neither confusing not that important, however it is part of the rule. Usually the best way to handle it is to let the coach know what he is doing wrong. You can also handle it by teling the QB to wait until the lineman are set before sending the back in motion. If he wants to continue doing it then flag it until he finally understands.

[newref1]

With much due respect I'm not trying to decide if or how this is important so I can decide myself if I'm going to enforce a rule or not. I'm just trying to better understand the intent of the rule so I can better enforce it. I was kind of thinking out loud n my post. It seems it would be confusing to the defense. And that's why it's in there. I agree it's a no brainer. It wasn't last night but now it is. But I was just exposed to something new that I hadn't faced before and thanks to him and you guys I understand it better.

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by newref1

Thanks. That makes sense. Now all I have to is figure out why this is that important. I find it hard to believe that whether the back does or doesn't wait until the linemen are set before going in motion somehow affects the defense. Maybe it just looks confusing to them. But thanks.

It is important because the rules state that only on player may be in motion at the time of the snap. If more than one player is in motion prior to the snap, then ALL eleven must come to a set position for one second prior to the ball being snapped.

If the RB goes in motion before the linemen are set for one second, then we have more than one player in motion. So, to be legal, the RB and all of his team mates must come to a one second set position prior to the ball being snapped. Once they do this, any ONE player can then go in motion again, if he so desires.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by newref1

With much due respect...

What, not ALL due respect? Are you saying that people here deserve more respect, and you refuse to give it?

A man in motion is an advantage to the offense. To limit that advantage, the rules restrict motion to one player. Combine this principle with the rule about coming set, and voilà you have the current rule that aims at fairness to both offense and defense.

[newref1]

Originally Posted by mbyron

What, not ALL due respect? Are you saying that people here deserve more respect, and you refuse to give it?

A man in motion is an advantage to the offense. To limit that advantage, the rules restrict motion to one player. Combine this principle with the rule about coming set, and voilà you have the current rule that aims at fairness to both offense and defense.

Good point on the respect thing. I don't know what I was thinking. But that's not unusual. And with all due respect thanks for the explanation.

[JamesBond]

"After a huddle or shift all 11 players of A shall come to an absolute stop and shall remain stationary simultaneously without movement of hands, feet, head or body for at least one second before the snap."

7.2.7 gives the man in motion requirements. Its pretty clear and the Case book gives several example of this as an illegal shift.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by newref1

Thanks. That makes sense. Now all I have to is figure out why this is that important. I find it hard to believe that whether the back does or doesn't wait until the linemen are set before going in motion somehow affects the defense. Maybe it just looks confusing to them. But thanks.

There must've been some importance to it, or they wouldn't've deleted from the definition of "shift" that it be "by a motion of both feet". Fed & NCAA apparently both did that some time after I was paying att'n, don't know exactly when.

In the 1980s it was common for the line to reset to 3- or 4-pt. with an up-and-down motion motion while a back was in motion and continued to be in motion at the snap. I as a spectator remarked to someone that that was illegal motion, and he agreed, but when I checked the rule I saw I was wrong (or just ahead of my time). The motion of resetting without moving the feet wasn't considered part of a shift. And the requirement that it be a motion of both feet allowed the QB to give a motion signal by raising & lowering one foot.

But obviously the rules makers must'v'e agreed with my sentiment, because they changed it to make the resetting into 3-pt. a shift, by removing reference to the feet. AIUI from reading here, the lift-a-foot signal isn't considered a change in position if the foot comes down in the same place.

Robert

[ajmc]

You might consider that the defense, observing all sorts of activity on the part of the offense from the point of breaking the huddle, understands that at some point the entire offense must pause simultaneously, for that 1 second, before someone can go in motion and the play will begin.

In essence, all the shifting and movement before that 1 second pause is deceptive and meaningless, as to when the play will commence, and that pause is designed to provide the defense with an opportunity to identify and react to the "final" offensive set.