Case Book Question

[GPC2]

4.2.3 SITUATION E: K's ball, 4th and 12, orn R's 45-yard line. K8's punt is rollin on R's 16 when an inadvertent whistle sounds. R76 blocks K84 in the back on R's 22-yard line during the down prior to the whistle. RULING: If the penalty is accepted, the foul takes precedence over the inadvertent whistle and results in post-scrimmage kick enforcement. If the penalty is declined, the inadvertent whistle during a loose ball play dictates a replay of the down. (2-16-2h; 4-2-3)

Can anybody explain to my where the enforcement would be from? Would it be R's 16 - even though the kick never ended?

....or is this an error in the book?

[OverAndBack]

Originally Posted by GPC2

4.2.3 SITUATION E: K's ball, 4th and 12, orn R's 45-yard line. K8's punt is rollin on R's 16 when an inadvertent whistle sounds. R76 blocks K84 in the back on R's 22-yard line during the down prior to the whistle. RULING: If the penalty is accepted, the foul takes precedence over the inadvertent whistle and results in post-scrimmage kick enforcement. If the penalty is declined, the inadvertent whistle during a loose ball play dictates a replay of the down. (2-16-2h; 4-2-3)

Can anybody explain to my where the enforcement would be from? Would it be R's 16 - even though the kick never ended?

....or is this an error in the book?

If it said "rollin on R's 16," yeah, that's an error.

[Theisey]

The kick ended at the time the IW was blown.
Where ever the ball was is the end-of-kick stop. Hopefully one of the officials was alert enough to bag that spot.

[GPC2]

But Thiesey, by saying that the R16 is the end of the kick, do you not imply that R would conceivably be able to play the ball from that spot had they not fouled prior to the IW?

[Theisey]

After I got home and has some free time to review the changed IW section in rule 4, I thought it would to allow for PSK to apply in as in this play.

However, the more I read the section, the more I became convinced that PSK does not apply and therefore the penalty will probably be accepted by team-K and marked off from the previous spot.

Maybe their intent was to allow PSK, but I don't see that in the way the rule was rewritten. To bad as it would be have been a better solution to a bad situation.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Theisey

After I got home and has some free time to review the changed IW section in rule 4, I thought it would to allow for PSK to apply in as in this play.

However, the more I read the section, the more I became convinced that PSK does not apply and therefore the penalty will probably be accepted by team-K and marked off from the previous spot.

Maybe their intent was to allow PSK, but I don't see that in the way the rule was rewritten. To bad as it would be have been a better solution to a bad situation.

So you'd give K a first down in the OP? (Plus 15 more when you kick out the R coach?)
________
Easy vape review

[CWIG]

I believe that if I am going to enforce PSK as the case book states, then I would hang my hat on the following:

2-24-2 - The kick ends when a player gains possession OR when the ball becomes dead while not in player possession. (note here that it does not state that the ball has come to a stop)

4-2-2j - The ball becomes dead and the down is ended...when an official sounds his whistle inadvertently.

10-4-3 - The basic spot is the spot where the kick ends when R commits a post-scrimmage kick foul (2-16-2h). R fouls behind the post-scrimmage kick spot are spot fouls.

The kick and down ended, and the ball became dead, when the official blew his whistle. For this play, the enforcement spot would be the end of the kick at the R-16. If the foul had occurred behind the PSK spot, then we would enforce from the spot of the foul.

Now if, as Bob M. questioned, the ball was still in the air, then we would hope to have a BJ or LJ who had their wits about them and could bag the spot where the ball was when the whistle blew.

[dumbref]

Originally Posted by CWIG

I believe that if I am going to enforce PSK as the case book states, then I would hang my hat on the following:

2-24-2 - The kick ends when a player gains possession OR when the ball becomes dead while not in player possession. (note here that it does not state that the ball has come to a stop)

4-2-2j - The ball becomes dead and the down is ended...when an official sounds his whistle inadvertently.

10-4-3 - The basic spot is the spot where the kick ends when R commits a post-scrimmage kick foul (2-16-2h). R fouls behind the post-scrimmage kick spot are spot fouls.

The kick and down ended, and the ball became dead, when the official blew his whistle. For this play, the enforcement spot would be the end of the kick at the R-16. If the foul had occurred behind the PSK spot, then we would enforce from the spot of the foul.

Now if, as Bob M. questioned, the ball was still in the air, then we would hope to have a BJ or LJ who had their wits about them and could bag the spot where the ball was when the whistle blew.

The final piece to your argument is in Rule 4-2-

Art. 3 … An inadvertent whistle ends the down. Inadvertent whistles are administered as follows:

D. The penalty shall be administered as determined by the basic spot and take precedence over inadvertent whistle administration if, during the down a live-ball foul occurs prior to the inadvertent whistle and the penalty is accepted.

If a kick ends without player possession beyond the LOS, R fouls beyond the NZ before the kick ended – would that qualify as PSK? Since the penalty takes precedence over the inadvertent whistle – better get a bean bag on the field, sounds like PSK to me.

Bob M. - At least until they change the case play again

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by dumbref

...If a kick ends without player possession beyond the LOS, R fouls beyond the NZ before the kick ended – would that qualify as PSK?

REPLY: Yes...if all of the PSK criteria are met (just like any other scrimmage kick). My only problem is with the last criteria: Without the foul, who would next be entitled to put the ball in play? To me, that doesn't appear to be satisfied.

[Warrenkicker]

I decided not to post on Friday when it would have been about the 4th post in this thread as I wondered if some rule had changed but I had forgotten it.

An IW during a scrimmage kick where there is a foul by R that would usually qualify as a PSK foul is the absolute worst time for the IW. The kick did not end. We don't have a PSK spot. We have an IW spot. We must enforce the foul as a loose-ball play and go to the previous spot. K has a very good chance of making the first down and keeping the ball all due to the fact that we screwed up.

Only bad things happen with IWs and even this foul can't save us. If fact it makes things twice as bad.

[dumbref]

Originally Posted by Warrenkicker

I decided not to post on Friday when it would have been about the 4th post in this thread as I wondered if some rule had changed but I had forgotten it.

An IW during a scrimmage kick where there is a foul by R that would usually qualify as a PSK foul is the absolute worst time for the IW. The kick did not end. We don't have a PSK spot. We have an IW spot. We must enforce the foul as a loose-ball play and go to the previous spot. K has a very good chance of making the first down and keeping the ball all due to the fact that we screwed up.

Only bad things happen with IWs and even this foul can't save us. If fact it makes things twice as bad.

I agree, the absolute worst time possible time for an IW. But the fact is the kick did end with the IW and more than likely the PSK spot is the same as the IW. It will not be the easiest or most accurate spot granted – but an enforcement spot.

The problem with previous spot is K holds all the cards and will very likely be awarded a first down through an official’s mistake when their intent was to give up the ball. They may still accept the penalty, they just are not as significantly reward as under the old interpretation. If they do not like the out come of the enforcement they can decline the penalty and replay the down under the IW provision.

IMHO the verbiage was always there to come to this conclusion and has been wrong since PSK was added to NF rules.