Case Book Question

[dumbref]

Originally Posted by CWIG

I believe that if I am going to enforce PSK as the case book states, then I would hang my hat on the following:

2-24-2 - The kick ends when a player gains possession OR when the ball becomes dead while not in player possession. (note here that it does not state that the ball has come to a stop)

4-2-2j - The ball becomes dead and the down is ended...when an official sounds his whistle inadvertently.

10-4-3 - The basic spot is the spot where the kick ends when R commits a post-scrimmage kick foul (2-16-2h). R fouls behind the post-scrimmage kick spot are spot fouls.

The kick and down ended, and the ball became dead, when the official blew his whistle. For this play, the enforcement spot would be the end of the kick at the R-16. If the foul had occurred behind the PSK spot, then we would enforce from the spot of the foul.

Now if, as Bob M. questioned, the ball was still in the air, then we would hope to have a BJ or LJ who had their wits about them and could bag the spot where the ball was when the whistle blew.

The final piece to your argument is in Rule 4-2-

Art. 3 … An inadvertent whistle ends the down. Inadvertent whistles are administered as follows:

D. The penalty shall be administered as determined by the basic spot and take precedence over inadvertent whistle administration if, during the down a live-ball foul occurs prior to the inadvertent whistle and the penalty is accepted.

If a kick ends without player possession beyond the LOS, R fouls beyond the NZ before the kick ended – would that qualify as PSK? Since the penalty takes precedence over the inadvertent whistle – better get a bean bag on the field, sounds like PSK to me.

Bob M. - At least until they change the case play again

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by dumbref

...If a kick ends without player possession beyond the LOS, R fouls beyond the NZ before the kick ended – would that qualify as PSK?

REPLY: Yes...if all of the PSK criteria are met (just like any other scrimmage kick). My only problem is with the last criteria: Without the foul, who would next be entitled to put the ball in play? To me, that doesn't appear to be satisfied.

[Warrenkicker]

I decided not to post on Friday when it would have been about the 4th post in this thread as I wondered if some rule had changed but I had forgotten it.

An IW during a scrimmage kick where there is a foul by R that would usually qualify as a PSK foul is the absolute worst time for the IW. The kick did not end. We don't have a PSK spot. We have an IW spot. We must enforce the foul as a loose-ball play and go to the previous spot. K has a very good chance of making the first down and keeping the ball all due to the fact that we screwed up.

Only bad things happen with IWs and even this foul can't save us. If fact it makes things twice as bad.

[dumbref]

Originally Posted by Warrenkicker

I decided not to post on Friday when it would have been about the 4th post in this thread as I wondered if some rule had changed but I had forgotten it.

An IW during a scrimmage kick where there is a foul by R that would usually qualify as a PSK foul is the absolute worst time for the IW. The kick did not end. We don't have a PSK spot. We have an IW spot. We must enforce the foul as a loose-ball play and go to the previous spot. K has a very good chance of making the first down and keeping the ball all due to the fact that we screwed up.

Only bad things happen with IWs and even this foul can't save us. If fact it makes things twice as bad.

I agree, the absolute worst time possible time for an IW. But the fact is the kick did end with the IW and more than likely the PSK spot is the same as the IW. It will not be the easiest or most accurate spot granted – but an enforcement spot.

The problem with previous spot is K holds all the cards and will very likely be awarded a first down through an official’s mistake when their intent was to give up the ball. They may still accept the penalty, they just are not as significantly reward as under the old interpretation. If they do not like the out come of the enforcement they can decline the penalty and replay the down under the IW provision.

IMHO the verbiage was always there to come to this conclusion and has been wrong since PSK was added to NF rules.

[Bullycon]

The PSK criterion that states "K is not next to put the ball in play" was surely included to capture those occasions where there was a change of possession after the kick. It's pretty safe to assume it was not intended to cover this scenario.

I agree that by letter of the rule, we go back to the previous spot and enforce from there. But this is in no way consistent with the spirit of the rule, or the virtue of fair play.

Let common sense apply. (In soccer, we called this Law 18. Maybe we can call it Rule 11.) If the penalty is accepted, penalize from the end of the kick, where the ball was when the whistle sounded. If declined, replay the down.