Mess at the End of the Half

[Scooby]

This happened in my varsity game last friday.

5 seconds left in the second quarter. A1 rolls out for a pass and throws the ball and B1 hits A1 late and drives him to the ground for Roughing the Passer. My Linejudge has throws a flag Intential (sp?) Grounding. I have no idea what happened to the ball after the quaterback threw it because of the roughing. Then I see another flag fly from my Backjudge and a couple seconds later a second from him. Two USC on the same player, B2. B is to kickoff to start the third quarter.

Our enforcement: Roughing and Grounding offset, end of half, two USC assessed on kickoff 15 yards and half the distance to the 12 1/2 for the kickoff to start the third quarter and the player ejected. And suprisingly, once the situation was explained, neither coach was upset.

How did we do?

[ODJ]

Why did your LJ throw the flag? That implies he was watching the QB too. Who was watching his area?
LJ comes to the R with information before flag is dropped.

Spell check!

[Deep]

Originally Posted by Scooby

How did we do?

Sounds like you controlled the game. That's good.

But you made a couple of mistakes in your enforcement.

First, although you could still have a personal foul, I don't think you can have a RTP on an illegal pass, which is what Grounding is.

Second, although you should be happy that the LJ helped you out, I think most R's would prefer that the LJ come to them with the info, rather than throwing the flag themselves.

Third, you had 2 live ball penalties that offset. Shouldn't you extend the half? (I'm assuming this was a Federation game, and I'm a bit weak on Fed rules now.) And if you extend, then you enforce those dead ball penalties then.

Fourth, you might want to ask the B about having 2 USC penalties on the same guy on the same play. It's possible, but it's rare.


Again, kudos for controlling the game.

[cmathews]

Actually the Fed rules don't specify a legal forward pass, just that a pass has been thrown from in or behind the NZ, so you have offsetting fouls and should have a replay of the down..with the enforcements of the unsportsmanlikes, and did the player get ejected???

[ajmc]

Personally, I have a problem with any official, other than the Referee assessing an intentional grounding penalty. The wing officials can be helpful in assisting the Referee by advising that there was, was not a receiver in the area, a receiver may have cut one way and the pass went another, a receiver fell down, etc. but the key to judging intentional grounding is the intent of the passer as it relates to the circumstances surrounding his passing. Only th Referee is in a position to make that assessment.

Given the circumstances you were presented with, your enforcement sounds fine.

Had YOU considered the pass intentionally grounded, you may have given the defender a bit more leeay for his original contact with the passer, but "driving hime into the ground" certainly merits a flag regardless.

[Deep]

Originally Posted by cmathews

Actually the Fed rules don't specify a legal forward pass, just that a pass has been thrown from in or behind the NZ, so you have offsetting fouls and should have a replay of the down..with the enforcements of the unsportsmanlikes, and did the player get ejected???

No, actually if you go to the definition of a passer, I think he needs to have thrown a legal forward pass. (I'm working with an '07 book here, you'll need to check your '08.)

I'm nitpicking here in saying that the OP didn't technically have RTP. Because it sounds like a personal foul was justified anyways.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Scooby

This happened in my varsity game last friday.

5 seconds left in the second quarter. A1 rolls out for a pass and throws the ball and B1 hits A1 late and drives him to the ground for Roughing the Passer. My Linejudge has throws a flag Intential (sp?) Grounding. I have no idea what happened to the ball after the quaterback threw it because of the roughing. Then I see another flag fly from my Backjudge and a couple seconds later a second from him. Two USC on the same player, B2. B is to kickoff to start the third quarter.

Our enforcement: Roughing and Grounding offset, end of half, two USC assessed on kickoff 15 yards and half the distance to the 12 1/2 for the kickoff to start the third quarter and the player ejected. And suprisingly, once the situation was explained, neither coach was upset.

How did we do?

Your line judge should have his responsibilities explained to him. IG is *your* flag as the WH and if he felt strongly about it should've come and talked to you about it. Then you would've been able to ask pertinent questions before laundry was on the field.

Two USC on the same player in the same dead ball interval? It's possible, but rare, and I'm not going to pass judgement without knowing what exactly happened. As the WH, I would've been strongly questioning the back judge as to whether that's what really happened, if the ejection was really warranted, etc.

As for the penalty enforcement, I assume you called it RTP but probably wanted to call it a live ball personal foul as a passer only throws legal forward passes. If so, you had a double foul (if you enforced IG) and should've enforced the USC from the succeeding spot and then had an untimed down. A double foul during the last play requires an untimed down in NFHS rules.

[OverAndBack]

A passer who throws an illegal forward pass does not get roughing the passer protection, as far as I know. Now...that said, of course it could be unnecessary roughness.

[parepat]

A little help. I'm not seeing where you can't have roughing when you have IG. Rules? Thanks.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by parepat

A little help. I'm not seeing where you can't have roughing when you have IG. Rules? Thanks.

2-32-11. By definition, a passer throws a LEGAL forward pass. Intentional grounding is, by definition, an ILLEGAL forward pass.

Roughing the passer talks about protection afforded a passer. By rule, if a player throws an illegal forward pass, he is not a passer.

Personal foul? Sure. RTP? Nope.

[OverAndBack]

2-32-11:"A passer is a player who throws a legal forward pass."

7-5-2a-e: "The illegal forward passes are: a pass after team possession has changed during the down; a pass from beyond the neutral zone; a pass intentionally thrown into an area not occupied by an eligible offensive receiver; a pass intentionally thrown incomplete to save loss of yardage or to conserve time; and a second or subsequent forward pass thrown during a down."

A player who throws an illegal forward pass is not a passer and is not subject to roughing the passer protection. He can be unnecessarily roughed, though.

[Rich]

I will add that if this is not the intention of the citations that we (myself and OTB) provided, the rules are not written well. There is no case play to cover this particular play, but I think the rules are quite clear.

[parepat]

Thanks guys. My 2005 rules book that I keep at work does not have "legal" in definition of passer. Must have changed since then.

[cmathews]

Yes the rule for a passer mentions legal forward pass, and the rule concerning roughing the passer does indeed refer to a passer, though not the legality of the pass....with that said, the guy that threw the illegal pass, still gets some protection from me. We won't have RTP but the same contact that warrants RTP will be unnecessary roughness in my game. My reasoning is that the thrower of the pass considers themself a passer, and will most likely act like a passer, and the defender will think of him as a passer, and if he hits a player whom he thinks is a passer in a way that would be RTP then he will get a flag from me. Now again with all that said, it would have to be an obvious RTP, if it is a love tap that may or may not be in a normal situation, it won't be here.... now I have to get down off of the fence, all this riding of the fence is giving me splinters in unmetionable places LOL

[OverAndBack]

Originally Posted by parepat

Thanks guys. My 2005 rules book that I keep at work does not have "legal" in definition of passer. Must have changed since then.

I think it changed in 2007, but I'm not sure. I do remember the "legal" being highlighted at some point. I just have Rules by Topic and Simplified & Illustrated with me at work.