Case Book Question

[GPC2]

The President of my local association has stated that this foul would be either penalized from the spot of the foul, or replay the down (K's option obviously).

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by OverAndBack

Cliff's Notes for the New Testament, rather than The Gospel itself, to make an analogy.

REPLY: Except that the NF Rule Book and Case Book have the same author...unlike the Cliff Notes and the New Testament

[Theisey]

Originally Posted by GPC2

The President of my local association has stated that this foul would be either penalized from the spot of the foul, or replay the down (K's option obviously).

How did he come up with the spot of the foul?

If you beleive this is PSK, then the end of the kick spot is on the R-16 and that's behind the spot of the foul.

I think the case book result needs a little NFHS comment. It appears to me that the IW just negated any possible PSK enforcement.

[OverAndBack]

Originally Posted by Bob M.

REPLY: Except that the NF Rule Book and Case Book have the same author...unlike the Cliff Notes and the New Testament

You don't remember St. Cliff?

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by Mike L

...Like Bob said, if this is what they want, it would be nice if it was clearly spelled out in the rules.

REPLY: ...and clearly spelled out exactly how they expect us to officiate it. If the kick is in-flight when the IW is blown, exactly how do we determine the PSK spot ???

I agree with the esteemed Mr. Heisey

[MRH]

Our state rep contacted the NFHS. The ruling in this situation is wrong. Per NFHS - this entire casebook play should be crossed out.

[ODJ]

The point of PSK enforcement is R has possession, which R doesn't when whistle is blown. Ball is still in motion: kick hasn't ended. I got PS unless NF has more clarification somewhere.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by ODJ

The point of PSK enforcement is R has possession, which R doesn't when whistle is blown. Ball is still in motion: kick hasn't ended. I got PS unless NF has more clarification somewhere.

The point of the PSK EXCEPTION is to GIVE R possession, despite their penalty during the loose ball. It is in the spirit of this exception (if not the letter) to give R the ball on an IW that causes the kick to end.

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by mbyron

The point of the PSK EXCEPTION is to GIVE R possession, despite their penalty during the loose ball. It is in the spirit of this exception (if not the letter) to give R the ball on an IW that causes the kick to end.

REPLY: You're correct: "The point of the PSK EXCEPTION is to GIVE R possession" but only if certain criteria are met. And one of those criteria is the "K will not be next to put the ball in play." Since there was an IW during a legal kick, who will next put the ball in play?

That's why this case play is in conflict with the rule book.

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by Bob M.

REPLY: ...and clearly spelled out exactly how they expect us to officiate it. If the kick is in-flight when the IW is blown, exactly how do we determine the PSK spot ???

I'm guessing at the NFHS thought process (such as it is), but I would venture we have to take a WAG.

You're correct: "The point of the PSK EXCEPTION is to GIVE R possession" but only if certain criteria are met. And one of those criteria is the "K will not be next to put the ball in play." Since there was an IW during a legal kick, who will next put the ball in play?

Again, I'm guessing at the NFHS thought process, K gets a choice. Enforce the penalty as per PSK, or decline the penalty and get a do over on the down.

Aaaah, it would be nice if they could at least attempt to take the guess work out of rule enforcement, huh?

[GPC2]

Originally Posted by MRH

Our state rep contacted the NFHS. The ruling in this situation is wrong. Per NFHS - this entire casebook play should be crossed out.

So I guess that means they still are deciding how this particular play should be handled. While that's all well and good in theory, how should we enforce this penalty in practice?

I personally will be following the lead of my president and giving K the option of enforcing the penalty at the spot of the foul (R's ball) or replaying the down.

BUT, hopefully we will never run into this situation.

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by GPC2

...and giving K the option of enforcing the penalty at the spot of the foul (R's ball)...

REPLY: Regardless of where the kick ended??? So if R pushed K in the back at R's 40 and the kick was rolling at R's 15 when the IW sounded, your association president is saying to enforce from R's 40 ?? That isn't even PSK.

[CWIG]

I believe that if I am going to enforce PSK as the case book states, then I would hang my hat on the following:

2-24-2 - The kick ends when a player gains possession OR when the ball becomes dead while not in player possession. (note here that it does not state that the ball has come to a stop)

4-2-2j - The ball becomes dead and the down is ended...when an official sounds his whistle inadvertently.

10-4-3 - The basic spot is the spot where the kick ends when R commits a post-scrimmage kick foul (2-16-2h). R fouls behind the post-scrimmage kick spot are spot fouls.

The kick and down ended, and the ball became dead, when the official blew his whistle. For this play, the enforcement spot would be the end of the kick at the R-16. If the foul had occurred behind the PSK spot, then we would enforce from the spot of the foul.

Now if, as Bob M. questioned, the ball was still in the air, then we would hope to have a BJ or LJ who had their wits about them and could bag the spot where the ball was when the whistle blew.

[dumbref]

Originally Posted by CWIG

I believe that if I am going to enforce PSK as the case book states, then I would hang my hat on the following:

2-24-2 - The kick ends when a player gains possession OR when the ball becomes dead while not in player possession. (note here that it does not state that the ball has come to a stop)

4-2-2j - The ball becomes dead and the down is ended...when an official sounds his whistle inadvertently.

10-4-3 - The basic spot is the spot where the kick ends when R commits a post-scrimmage kick foul (2-16-2h). R fouls behind the post-scrimmage kick spot are spot fouls.

The kick and down ended, and the ball became dead, when the official blew his whistle. For this play, the enforcement spot would be the end of the kick at the R-16. If the foul had occurred behind the PSK spot, then we would enforce from the spot of the foul.

Now if, as Bob M. questioned, the ball was still in the air, then we would hope to have a BJ or LJ who had their wits about them and could bag the spot where the ball was when the whistle blew.

The final piece to your argument is in Rule 4-2-

Art. 3 … An inadvertent whistle ends the down. Inadvertent whistles are administered as follows:

D. The penalty shall be administered as determined by the basic spot and take precedence over inadvertent whistle administration if, during the down a live-ball foul occurs prior to the inadvertent whistle and the penalty is accepted.

If a kick ends without player possession beyond the LOS, R fouls beyond the NZ before the kick ended – would that qualify as PSK? Since the penalty takes precedence over the inadvertent whistle – better get a bean bag on the field, sounds like PSK to me.

Bob M. - At least until they change the case play again

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by dumbref

...If a kick ends without player possession beyond the LOS, R fouls beyond the NZ before the kick ended – would that qualify as PSK?

REPLY: Yes...if all of the PSK criteria are met (just like any other scrimmage kick). My only problem is with the last criteria: Without the foul, who would next be entitled to put the ball in play? To me, that doesn't appear to be satisfied.