Unabated to the Quarterback + Illegal Formation

[SportsFan]

On a play, the offense is lined up in an illegal formation. A defensive player jumps across the line early, and as soon as the ball is snapped, the play is blown dead, because the defensive player is unabated to the quarterback. Is the offense penalized for an illegal formation?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by SportsFan

On a play, the offense is lined up in an illegal formation. A defensive player jumps across the line early, and as soon as the ball is snapped, the play is blown dead, because the defensive player is unabated to the quarterback. Is the offense penalized for an illegal formation?

This is an NFL question, because there is no such foul in lower levels of football.

The unabated happens before the snap, though, and illegal formation is a foul simultaneous with the snap, so no, this isn't penalized.

In a HS game on Friday, we had encroachment by the defense right after two players for the offense went in motion at the same time. The defensive coach couldn't understand why that isn't a penalty on the offense, but like my wing told him, the two in motion could always come set for a full second and then it's just a legal shift before the snap whereas the encroachment is a dead ball foul.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

This is an NFL question, because there is no such foul in lower levels of football.

The unabated happens before the snap, though, and illegal formation is a foul simultaneous with the snap, so no, this isn't penalized.

In a HS game on Friday, we had encroachment by the defense right after two players for the offense went in motion at the same time. The defensive coach couldn't understand why that isn't a penalty on the offense, but like my wing told him, the two in motion could always come set for a full second and then it's just a legal shift before the snap whereas the encroachment is a dead ball foul.

I'm confused a little here. Are you suggesting that in NCAA the ball is not to be blown dead if a player who is offsides has an unabated path to the quarterback? I can't recall the rulebook reference but I did see it called against OK in the WA game.
________
VAPORITE PRODUCTS

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by youngump

I'm confused a little here. Are you suggesting that in NCAA the ball is not to be blown dead if a player who is offsides has an unabated path to the quarterback? I can't recall the rulebook reference but I did see it called against OK in the WA game.

And who said that...the announcers?

[youngump]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

And who said that...the announcers?

Who said there was no such penalty? JugglingReferee.
Who announced the unabated and blew it dead? Brian O'Cain.
________
Art On The Hill Condo

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by youngump

Who said there was no such penalty? JugglingReferee.
Who announced the unabated and blew it dead? Brian O'Cain.

JugglingReferee qualified his response to be the NFL ruling. Your comment surrounded the NCAA case.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by youngump

Who said there was no such penalty? JugglingReferee.

Is that why you qouted Rich?

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

This is an NFL question, because there is no such foul in lower levels of football.

The unabated happens before the snap, though, and illegal formation is a foul simultaneous with the snap, so no, this isn't penalized.

In a HS game on Friday, we had encroachment by the defense right after two players for the offense went in motion at the same time. The defensive coach couldn't understand why that isn't a penalty on the offense, but like my wing told him, the two in motion could always come set for a full second and then it's just a legal shift before the snap whereas the encroachment is a dead ball foul.

We had something similar Friday night as well. A WR lined up in the neutral zone and the HL was trying to get him to step back (trying to prevent a silly penalty). At the same time, a member of the DL jumped into the neutral zone and the LJ flagged him for encroachment. The HL also threw his flag because the WR was still in the neutral zone. None of us realized that and assumed the HL had the defense in the neutral zone. Luckly we checked with him first. Since the WR was technically in the neutral zone before the DL, the foul was on the offense and we moved them back 5 yards. This was all very confusing to anyone but us because everybody saw the defense encroach but the signal was encroachment on the offense. The call was right but we may get dinged on the coach's vote.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

We had something similar Friday night as well. A WR lined up in the neutral zone and the HL was trying to get him to step back (trying to prevent a silly penalty). At the same time, a member of the DL jumped into the neutral zone and the LJ flagged him for encroachment. The HL also threw his flag because the WR was still in the neutral zone. None of us realized that and assumed the HL had the defense in the neutral zone. Luckly we checked with him first. Since the WR was technically in the neutral zone before the DL, the foul was on the offense and we moved them back 5 yards.

Is it possible the WR was there before the NZ began and was slow moving back?

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Is it possible the WR was there before the NZ began and was slow moving back?

Nope...he lined up in the neutral zone and was waiting for the snap. Unlike most receivers, they check with the official AFTER they are set but he did it before. The HL tried to get his attention to get him back to avoid the penalty but when the defense jumped, he didn't want the receiver to get away with what he did. The receiver was clueless.

[PackersFTW]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

We had something similar Friday night as well. A WR lined up in the neutral zone and the HL was trying to get him to step back (trying to prevent a silly penalty). At the same time, a member of the DL jumped into the neutral zone and the LJ flagged him for encroachment. The HL also threw his flag because the WR was still in the neutral zone. None of us realized that and assumed the HL had the defense in the neutral zone. Luckly we checked with him first. Since the WR was technically in the neutral zone before the DL, the foul was on the offense and we moved them back 5 yards. This was all very confusing to anyone but us because everybody saw the defense encroach but the signal was encroachment on the offense. The call was right but we may get dinged on the coach's vote.

you sure this is right? this would not be the right call in the nfl. pretty sure this is wrong because it is not illegal to be lined up in the neutral zone before the snap. who says the WR wasn't going to step back a half second before the snap? nobody knows because the defense committed a penalty FIRST. the offense basically gets the benefit of the doubt until the point of the snap (you don't see whistles before the snap on the offense, except a false start), but if the defense commits a penalty that stops the play (encroachment), then technically the snap never happened. and in this case, the ball was never even snapped right? so i don't think this was right.

[aschramm]

Originally Posted by PackersFTW

you sure this is right? this would not be the right call in the nfl. pretty sure this is wrong because it is not illegal to be lined up in the neutral zone before the snap. who says the WR wasn't going to step back a half second before the snap? nobody knows because the defense committed a penalty FIRST. the offense basically gets the benefit of the doubt until the point of the snap (you don't see whistles before the snap on the offense, except a false start), but if the defense commits a penalty that stops the play (encroachment), then technically the snap never happened. and in this case, the ball was never even snapped right? so i don't think this was right.

I hope you noticed the part where he said "We had something similar on FRIDAY night as well". I don't think the NFL plays on Friday nights.

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by PackersFTW

you sure this is right? this would not be the right call in the nfl. pretty sure this is wrong because it is not illegal to be lined up in the neutral zone before the snap. who says the WR wasn't going to step back a half second before the snap? nobody knows because the defense committed a penalty FIRST. the offense basically gets the benefit of the doubt until the point of the snap (you don't see whistles before the snap on the offense, except a false start), but if the defense commits a penalty that stops the play (encroachment), then technically the snap never happened. and in this case, the ball was never even snapped right? so i don't think this was right.

As aschramm points out, my play was a high school game where the rules are different. Technically, no player can line up in the neutral zone after the ready for play. Most officials use common sense and give the player the opportunity to line up properly if he's not gaining an advantage at the time. If he's still in the neutral zone at the snap, he may kill the play and penalize the offending team if he's well into the neutral zone. This is where discretion comes into play and I think most HS officials use this same philosophy.

[Bullycon]

Originally Posted by PackersFTW

you sure this is right? this would not be the right call in the nfl. pretty sure this is wrong because it is not illegal to be lined up in the neutral zone before the snap. who says the WR wasn't going to step back a half second before the snap? nobody knows because the defense committed a penalty FIRST. the offense basically gets the benefit of the doubt until the point of the snap (you don't see whistles before the snap on the offense, except a false start), but if the defense commits a penalty that stops the play (encroachment), then technically the snap never happened. and in this case, the ball was never even snapped right? so i don't think this was right.

If he does, then it's an illegal shift, because he wasn't set for a full second before the snap.

At any rate, his post was referencing a high school game. No player may line up in or even enter into the neutral zone before the snap. A little wiggle room is often given to WRs who line up in the zone, but then move back when they notice they have done so.

[Forksref]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

This was all very confusing to anyone but us because everybody saw the defense encroach but the signal was encroachment on the offense. The call was right but we may get dinged on the coach's vote.

That's what you get for being helpful.