Unabated to the Quarterback + Illegal Formation

[SportsFan]

On a play, the offense is lined up in an illegal formation. A defensive player jumps across the line early, and as soon as the ball is snapped, the play is blown dead, because the defensive player is unabated to the quarterback. Is the offense penalized for an illegal formation?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by SportsFan

On a play, the offense is lined up in an illegal formation. A defensive player jumps across the line early, and as soon as the ball is snapped, the play is blown dead, because the defensive player is unabated to the quarterback. Is the offense penalized for an illegal formation?

This is an NFL question, because there is no such foul in lower levels of football.

The unabated happens before the snap, though, and illegal formation is a foul simultaneous with the snap, so no, this isn't penalized.

In a HS game on Friday, we had encroachment by the defense right after two players for the offense went in motion at the same time. The defensive coach couldn't understand why that isn't a penalty on the offense, but like my wing told him, the two in motion could always come set for a full second and then it's just a legal shift before the snap whereas the encroachment is a dead ball foul.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by SportsFan

On a play, the offense is lined up in an illegal formation. A defensive player jumps across the line early, and as soon as the ball is snapped, the play is blown dead, because the defensive player is unabated to the quarterback. Is the offense penalized for an illegal formation?

NFL Ruling:

Illegal formation only is a foul once the ball is legally snapped.

Unabated to the QB is foul that ocurs prior to the snap, and kills the play, preventing any snap: legal or illegal.

Therefore, there is no illegal formation foul, and only the penalty for the defensive foul is applied.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by SportsFan

On a play, the offense is lined up in an illegal formation. A defensive player jumps across the line early, and as soon as the ball is snapped, the play is blown dead, because the defensive player is unabated to the quarterback. Is the offense penalized for an illegal formation?

I'm pretty sure that in NFL rules, "unabated" is only a provision in the encroachment rule that causes an immediate whistle and thereby prevents the ball from being put in play, in which case illegal formation is a non-issue. In other words, if the ball was snapped, "unabated" would not kill the play, so the fact that it was whistled means that the ball remained dead, the ostensible snap being unofficial, and there's no illegal formation until the ball is put in play.

Robert

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

I'm pretty sure that in NFL rules, "unabated" is only a provision in the encroachment rule that causes an immediate whistle and thereby prevents the ball from being put in play, in which case illegal formation is a non-issue. In other words, if the ball was snapped, "unabated" would not kill the play, so the fact that it was whistled means that the ball remained dead, the ostensible snap being unofficial, and there's no illegal formation until the ball is put in play.

You just wanted to use the word "ostensible".

[youngump]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

This is an NFL question, because there is no such foul in lower levels of football.

The unabated happens before the snap, though, and illegal formation is a foul simultaneous with the snap, so no, this isn't penalized.

In a HS game on Friday, we had encroachment by the defense right after two players for the offense went in motion at the same time. The defensive coach couldn't understand why that isn't a penalty on the offense, but like my wing told him, the two in motion could always come set for a full second and then it's just a legal shift before the snap whereas the encroachment is a dead ball foul.

I'm confused a little here. Are you suggesting that in NCAA the ball is not to be blown dead if a player who is offsides has an unabated path to the quarterback? I can't recall the rulebook reference but I did see it called against OK in the WA game.
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[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by youngump

I'm confused a little here. Are you suggesting that in NCAA the ball is not to be blown dead if a player who is offsides has an unabated path to the quarterback? I can't recall the rulebook reference but I did see it called against OK in the WA game.

And who said that...the announcers?

[youngump]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

And who said that...the announcers?

Who said there was no such penalty? JugglingReferee.
Who announced the unabated and blew it dead? Brian O'Cain.
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[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by youngump

Who said there was no such penalty? JugglingReferee.
Who announced the unabated and blew it dead? Brian O'Cain.

JugglingReferee qualified his response to be the NFL ruling. Your comment surrounded the NCAA case.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

JugglingReferee qualified his response to be the NFL ruling. Your comment surrounded the NCAA case.

You're right, it was RichMSN who said the foul didn't exist at lower levels. Your response just made me think everyone was agreeing with him.
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[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by youngump

Who said there was no such penalty? JugglingReferee.

Is that why you qouted Rich?

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

This is an NFL question, because there is no such foul in lower levels of football.

The unabated happens before the snap, though, and illegal formation is a foul simultaneous with the snap, so no, this isn't penalized.

In a HS game on Friday, we had encroachment by the defense right after two players for the offense went in motion at the same time. The defensive coach couldn't understand why that isn't a penalty on the offense, but like my wing told him, the two in motion could always come set for a full second and then it's just a legal shift before the snap whereas the encroachment is a dead ball foul.

We had something similar Friday night as well. A WR lined up in the neutral zone and the HL was trying to get him to step back (trying to prevent a silly penalty). At the same time, a member of the DL jumped into the neutral zone and the LJ flagged him for encroachment. The HL also threw his flag because the WR was still in the neutral zone. None of us realized that and assumed the HL had the defense in the neutral zone. Luckly we checked with him first. Since the WR was technically in the neutral zone before the DL, the foul was on the offense and we moved them back 5 yards. This was all very confusing to anyone but us because everybody saw the defense encroach but the signal was encroachment on the offense. The call was right but we may get dinged on the coach's vote.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

We had something similar Friday night as well. A WR lined up in the neutral zone and the HL was trying to get him to step back (trying to prevent a silly penalty). At the same time, a member of the DL jumped into the neutral zone and the LJ flagged him for encroachment. The HL also threw his flag because the WR was still in the neutral zone. None of us realized that and assumed the HL had the defense in the neutral zone. Luckly we checked with him first. Since the WR was technically in the neutral zone before the DL, the foul was on the offense and we moved them back 5 yards.

Is it possible the WR was there before the NZ began and was slow moving back?

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Is it possible the WR was there before the NZ began and was slow moving back?

Nope...he lined up in the neutral zone and was waiting for the snap. Unlike most receivers, they check with the official AFTER they are set but he did it before. The HL tried to get his attention to get him back to avoid the penalty but when the defense jumped, he didn't want the receiver to get away with what he did. The receiver was clueless.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by youngump

You're right, it was RichMSN who said the foul didn't exist at lower levels. Your response just made me think everyone was agreeing with him.

I may have misspoken. I should've specifically said "NFHS rules." Someone from Texas or Massachusetts (or an NCAA official) can address the NCAA rules.