Crossing the Line

[dumbref]

Just curious – what is everyone’s definition of “crossing the line”. Free kick, the runner is tackled. The runner stands with the tackler still holding his leg. The runner throws a short punch (open hand) to the helmet of the tackler lying on the ground. My U flags the runner for the punch and ejects him. It occurs in the side zone about the 30 yard line directly in front of the bench. That’s what preceded the conference with the coach.

Coach calls TO and meets me about the numbers obviously upset. Before I can say anything, the coach says “THAT’S BULL CRAP!!” I said, “Coach, please calm down and don’t say anything that’s going to make matters worse” and walked closer to the sideline. I told him I saw the punch also and it was certainly an ejectable foul. That was pretty much the extent of the conference. As I walked away he yelled again “THAT’S BULL CRAP AND YOU KNOW IT!!”

How many of you would flag this for UC? Never, Always, Maybe?

The rest of the story: IMHO, the foul was marginal at best, but I backed my U’s call (you can pick that one apart if you like also). By the purest definition, it was a punch. But it was little more than a push, partially initiated by the tackler holding on to the runner’s leg. It also looked worse than it really was because the tackler’s helmet came off with the punch/push. Had I been there first – I doubt I flag it. Certainly some stiff talk to both, but not a flag. We had no problems to that point in the game – it went down hill a bit from there.

Feel free to make any comment - but I am most interested in your reaction to the coaches comment - UC?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by dumbref

Just curious – what is everyone’s definition of “crossing the line”. Free kick, the runner is tackled. The runner stands with the tackler still holding his leg. The runner throws a short punch (open hand) to the helmet of the tackler lying on the ground. My U flags the runner for the punch and ejects him. It occurs in the side zone about the 30 yard line directly in front of the bench. That’s what preceded the conference with the coach.

Coach calls TO and meets me about the numbers obviously upset. Before I can say anything, the coach says “THAT’S BULL CRAP!!” I said, “Coach, please calm down and don’t say anything that’s going to make matters worse” and walked closer to the sideline. I told him I saw the punch also and it was certainly an ejectable foul. That was pretty much the extent of the conference. As I walked away he yelled again “THAT’S BULL CRAP AND YOU KNOW IT!!”

How many of you would flag this for UC? Never, Always, Maybe?

The rest of the story: IMHO, the foul was marginal at best, but I backed my U’s call (you can pick that one apart if you like also). By the purest definition, it was a punch. But it was little more than a push, partially initiated by the tackler holding on to the runner’s leg. It also looked worse than it really was because the tackler’s helmet came off with the punch/push. Had I been there first – I doubt I flag it. Certainly some stiff talk to both, but not a flag. We had no problems to that point in the game – it went down hill a bit from there.

No way I'm ejecting someone for this act when his leg wasn't let go of.

I would not flag the coach because of his statements are true. Your U made a bull crap call, imho. I won't say that I would never flag a coach for this, because I "never say never, never say always".

It sounds as though the game went downhill because of this call. Lesson learned.

[JRutledge]

If you throw a punch, that is an ejection. The player should have more self-control than he displayed there. The official was within their right. Now I was not there so I do not know if it really was a "punch" or just a reaction. I might try to err on the side of not ejecting the player. But if the player clearly threw a punch, then that is just too bad. We try to be too nice when the rules are clearly violated. And if it is on tape, I probably would feel better about the ejection.

Peace

[ajmc]

Not having seen what happened, but just based on your description, a punch is a punch. What does letting it go say to the other players on the field, some punches are OK?

You could have responded, "You're absolutely right, that was a stupid thing to do. Now you have an opportunity to teach your player not to be stupid".

You were correct in supporting your Umpire's decision as he may have seen it differently than you, and there is no way you could reverse his decision without making both of you look foolish.

Just for the record, NF:9.4.3.j uses the term "Strike" rather than punch. NF: 2.11 defines "Fighting" and again includes the word "striking" rather than punching. Disqualification is entirely a judgment call by the official throwing the flag, and should never be changed on the field. If you, as Referee, have issues with the decision they should be hashed out after you've all left the field when the game is history.

Even though ignoring the coach's second remark might not have done any good, over responding to it could have made things worse. If the problems that developed were a continuation of this dispute, one remedy might be to calmly walk over to the sideline, speak directly to the coach, as privately as possible and suggest something to the effect of,, "Coach you made your point, I heard you, so there's no point repeating it or dwelling on it. Let's play ball".

Then if he continues, whatever happens is on him.

[svm1010]

Originally Posted by ajmc

one remedy might be to calmly walk over to the sideline, speak directly to the coach, as privately as possible and suggest something to the effect of,, "Coach you made your point, I heard you, so there's no point repeating it or dwelling on it. Let's play ball".

Then if he continues, whatever happens is on him.

I would be very careful with this one. It could be viewed as you trying to show him up. There is only one good thing and many bad things can come from that conversation. Not that it is wrong, just not my first choice. My suggestion would be to continue to my position and get play going again. (Only bad things happen during dead ball periods, remember )

Coach is an adult and is expected to be responsible for his/her actions without needing a warning regardless of the situation. I may give him that initial comment to get it off his chest as long as he keeps it to the call. If he continues or if he begins to attack me or my crew on a personal level ("you are terrible", "you have no business on the field", etc) then I'm more than likely going to come out with a flag.

Coach can't usurp your authority on the field unless you unwittingly abdicate it for them

[daggo66]

However the 2.11 defintion also includes the would "attempt" and "whether or not there is contact." Based on the description and not having been there, I would have upheld the ejection and flagged the coach for USC for saying it a second time.

[Jimmie24]

A punch is thrown. Why worry about severity or whatever. It is a punch. That kid will learn a valuable life lesson. Coach had his opportunity to vent, the second time he says it as you are walking away is the first one on him too. Another lesson to be learned hopefully.

[Sonofanump]

A punch is a punch (ejection) and the coach would deserve one also (USC not ejection) for language if it is loud enough for anyone else to hear. I might have three fouls here, how about one on the tackler for PF.

[hawkishowl20]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

No way I'm ejecting someone for this act when his leg wasn't let go of.

I would not flag the coach because of his statements are true. Your U made a bull crap call, imho. I won't say that I would never flag a coach for this, because I "never say never, never say always".

It sounds as though the game went downhill because of this call. Lesson learned.

Why was his leg not let go of ? The rules are pretty clear. After a tackle and a runner attempts to stand you don’t mess with his legs. Where was the U taking a nap? Get the kid off of his legs. Talk, whistle, do something. I didn’t see it but the player’s reaction suggests he was defending himself. It is a tricky situation but a PF on leg grabber seems the way to go. The puncher puts you in a bad situation stern talking to makes a lot of sense. If you ejected someone for defending themselves (regardless of what they did) and didn’t penalize the provocation even though its obvious you are really encouraging a lot more chaos.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

It is a tricky situation but an Unsportsmanlike conduct on leg grabber seems the way to go.

Can't have that as USC is for noncontact fouls only.

[hawkishowl20]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Can't have that as USC is for noncontact fouls only.

yea I saw that right after I posted it. PF was what I wanted to type. Thanks.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

Why was his leg not let go of ? The rules are pretty clear. After a tackle and a runner attempts to stand you don’t mess with his legs.

Reference please? If they are so clear, tell me where it says such a thing?

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

Where was the U taking a nap? Get the kid off of his legs. Talk, whistle, do something.

You said you officiate right? Since when does the umpire deal with all tackles? Why not accuse the wings or the back judge with incompetence?

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

I didn’t see it but the player’s reaction suggests he was defending himself.

Can you show a rules reference where that is a proper response?

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

It is a tricky situation but a PF on leg grabber seems the way to go. The puncher puts you in a bad situation stern talking to makes a lot of sense. If you ejected someone for defending themselves (regardless of what they did) and didn’t penalize the provocation even though it’s obvious you are really encouraging a lot more chaos.

If you knew anything about NF rules, they do not care what a player does to defend themselves. Actually since NF rules tend to take a similar philosophy with other sports, it is very clear the NF does not give a darn about giving a pass to someone that retaliates. And certainly there is no rule that gives them a pass in football.

Peace

[daggo66]

Rutt, make sure that you ask him for references of actual rules from an actual current NFHS rule book.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by dumbref

Coach calls TO and meets me about the numbers obviously upset. Before I can say anything, the coach says “THAT’S BULL CRAP!!” I said, “Coach, please calm down and don’t say anything that’s going to make matters worse” and walked closer to the sideline. I told him I saw the punch also and it was certainly an ejectable foul. That was pretty much the extent of the conference. As I walked away he yelled again “THAT’S BULL CRAP AND YOU KNOW IT!!”

I wouldn't have met the coach, myself. I would've told him to go to his team and walked away.

Was he requesting a conference to discuss a misapplication of the rules? No. So go meet with your team, then, inside the hash marks or outside the numbers. Otherwise, get 15 for USC.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

Why was his leg not let go of ? The rules are pretty clear. After a tackle and a runner attempts to stand you don’t mess with his legs. Where was the U taking a nap? Get the kid off of his legs. Talk, whistle, do something. I didn’t see it but the player’s reaction suggests he was defending himself. It is a tricky situation but a PF on leg grabber seems the way to go. The puncher puts you in a bad situation stern talking to makes a lot of sense. If you ejected someone for defending themselves (regardless of what they did) and didn’t penalize the provocation even though its obvious you are really encouraging a lot more chaos.

Defending himself? Puh-leeze.

I'd agree with a PF on the leg grabber, but the punch is gonna get the second guy ejected. The leg grab sure isn't.