How is this fair? Replay Review Colt/Bears

[Unit14]

I don't claim to be overly knowledgeable of the NFL rules. I've refereed HS and Youth Football Leagues and I'm definitely a fan of the NFL so I'm not completely clueless either. In this case, I just think this is an interesting conversation or argument.

I believe the NFL rules says that a timeout is charged if there isn't enough evidence to overturn the call on the field. In this case, there was apparently enough evidence to say it was a fumble, which was the challenge, but there wasn't enough evidence to say who's ball it was. So, to me, Lovie got the challenge right, but there wasn't enough evidence to say who recovered the ball. So, Lovie was right in his challenge, and shouldn't be charged a timeout. I don't have a NFL rulebook, so I don't know if this is defined anywhere.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Unit14

So, Lovie was right in his challenge, and shouldn't be charged a timeout. I don't have a NFL rulebook, so I don't know if this is defined anywhere.

I am not sure you know what Lovie was told or why Lovie wanted to challenge.

Peace

[Unit14]

What was announced was that Lovie was challenging that there was a fumble. There was a fumble and the replay booth told Madden that the reason the play could not be overturned was because they didn't know who to give the ball to.

You're right, I wasn't part of the conversation.

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by Unit14

What was announced was that Lovie was challenging that there was a fumble. There was a fumble and the replay booth told Madden that the reason the play could not be overturned was because they didn't know who to give the ball to.

You're right, I wasn't part of the conversation.

Everything you are saying is correct. The announcers did say the replay official told them it was a fumble but because the recovery was a scrum, they could not say for certain that the Bears recovered. The rule change last year was to allow for the defensive team to retain the ball in the event a runner was ruled down by contact and the defensive team obviously would have gained possession had the whistle not been blown. I'm guessing the same could be applied if the offense recovered the ball behind the spot of the fumble and maybe lose the ability to gain a first down.

The best way to handle it would probably be to tell the coach before they went into replay that if we determine it was a fumble but probably can't determine who recovered (and thus charge him with a timeout), does he still want the challenge. If he says yes, at least he is going into it knowing the possible ramifications.

This is an interesting scenario that may not have been fully considered when they put the rule in last year. I'm sure this will be part of the Official Review on the NFL network this week.

[Unit14]

bisonlj - Thanks for that response. I think that's what I was looking for, and maybe that's the way it happened, but Lovie should've been told that no matter what we see on the tape we don't know what happened in the scrum and it won't change the outcome. Therefore, don't waste a timeout.

[Raymond]

Just taking a stab here but maybe the rule in this case is that since the outcome of the play didn't change that the coach lost the challenge. Yes, there was a fumble, but the possession didn't change.

Similar to a 4th down play in which a player is marked short of the yard to gain. Coach challenges and the spot is determined to be wrong but the team still doesn't make a first down when the ball is re-spotted then the team is still charged a time-out.

[OverAndBack]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

Everything you are saying is correct. The announcers did say the replay official told them it was a fumble but because the recovery was a scrum, they could not say for certain that the Bears recovered.

I was watching the game and I thought that was Michaels/Madden speculation. I respect Michaels' work, but he's not always right when it comes to officiating things and don't get me started on Madden.

But unless they came back on later and said "the replay official told us this" and I missed it, I thought it was just announcer speculation.

I do not recall a replay official telling an announcing team anything during a game. Maybe it has happened, but I don't recall it. AFAIK, the replay official and those with him are technically part of the officiating crew, are they not? And only a pool reporting circumstance can get clarification from someone on the officiating crew, is that not the case?

Not saying anything about the validity of the call, because it was confusing - seemed to me that the runner could have been called down by contact because "contact" can be a swipe that barely touches the runner while he's down (that I've seen).

Just saying that it was my recollection that Michaels and Madden were speculating, not that the replay official told them anything. Because I don't believe replay officials speak to reporters or announcers. If they do, I've missed prior instances of it.

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by OverAndBack

Just saying that it was my recollection that Michaels and Madden were speculating, not that the replay official told them anything. Because I don't believe replay officials speak to reporters or announcers. If they do, I've missed prior instances of it.

They did say later that they got the information from the replay official. Whether that was direct communication or a false statement is up for debate. Just because they said that doesn't make it true.

[OverAndBack]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

They did say later that they got the information from the replay official. Whether that was direct communication or a false statement is up for debate. Just because they said that doesn't make it true.

Okay, I had to step out for a bit and thought that if they revisited it later, I wouldn't have heard them say it.

I don't think they'd lie and say they got it from the replay official because the replay official could then say to Pereira "I didn't say a word to them."

But I thought what I heard in the initial aftermath of the play was just speculation on the part of the announcers.