Illegal Shift - Need Clarification

[coachd]

We play in a Youth Football League in Illinois and follow the IHSA (Illinois High School Assoc.) and NFHS rules. There are no league-specific rules or IHSA rules which override the NFHS on Illegal Shift or Illegal Motion.

Situation: Offense breaks huddle and approaches LOS. QB calls "Down" and all players (except Center & QB) hit thigh pads (2-pt stance) and all 11 players hold position for 1 second. Then a RB goes in motion parallel to LOS while everyone is in a 2-pt stance. Then QB calls "Set" and everyone else except for RB in motion moves into a 3-pt stance. The RB continues motion through the snap.

Is this an Illegal Shift?

(A) I have read posts stating that moving from a 2-pt stance to a 3-pt stance is a Shift and therefore all 11 players must come to a stop for 1 second.

(B) I also read the Motion-Shift Paper that was posted by one of the members and it describes a RB going in motion simultaneously with other players getting into their 3-pt stance as a "classic illegal shift."

If both of these situations are true, then I would think that a RB in motion when everyone else shifts into a 3-pt stance would be illegal. It seems that a legal man in motion becomes an Illegal Shift when the ball is snapped because the RB did not stop and get set for 1 second.

Is that a correct interpretation?

[txrefcshou]

Originally Posted by coachd

We play in a Youth Football League in Illinois and follow the IHSA (Illinois High School Assoc.) and NFHS rules. There are no league-specific rules or IHSA rules which override the NFHS on Illegal Shift or Illegal Motion.

Situation: Offense breaks huddle and approaches LOS. QB calls "Down" and all players (except Center & QB) hit thigh pads (2-pt stance) and all 11 players hold position for 1 second. Then a RB goes in motion parallel to LOS while everyone is in a 2-pt stance. Then QB calls "Set" and everyone else except for RB in motion moves into a 3-pt stance. The RB continues motion through the snap.

Is this an Illegal Shift?

(A) I have read posts stating that moving from a 2-pt stance to a 3-pt stance is a Shift and therefore all 11 players must come to a stop for 1 second.

(B) I also read the Motion-Shift Paper that was posted by one of the members and it describes a RB going in motion simultaneously with other players getting into their 3-pt stance as a "classic illegal shift."

If both of these situations are true, then I would think that a RB in motion when everyone else shifts into a 3-pt stance would be illegal. It seems that a legal man in motion becomes an Illegal Shift when the ball is snapped because the RB did not stop and get set for 1 second.

Is that a correct interpretation?

Yes, you are correct. I had a 2a team the second week of the season that did it almost every play. I called it twice told the coach and just let it go the rest of the game.

[Ed Hickland]

Motion in youth leagues seems to be a concept the "coaches" have a hard time mastering, therefore, the kids cannot do it correctly.

What is so difficult about "the offense must come set for one second"? It means nobody moves for one second, period. Shift into a three-point stance, nobody moves for one second; then, a back can go in motion.

[coachd]

Originally Posted by txrefcshou

Yes, you are correct. I had a 2a team the second week of the season that did it almost every play. I called it twice told the coach and just let it go the rest of the game.

Thanks for your reply. I thought the play looked funny when I saw it on a scouting video and we mentioned it during a game, but the Ref Crew said that it was legal.

Actually, it was an away game and the Linesman on our side of the field said the RB motion was legal and didn't call the illegal shift when the opposing team went into their 3-pt stance.

So either the crew didn't recognize the illegal shift or they chose not to enforce it even though we complained about it.

I'm not sure who's call it was to make. It was a 3-man crew... Referee, Umpire/Field Judge and a Linesman. I'm pretty sure it was the Referee's call, but can the Linesman also make that call?

Either way, our head coach asked the Linesman to make sure the Referee was aware of the situation. The play happened over and over throughout the game and it was never called.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: Thanks for reading the paper, and you're correct. Going from a 2-pt. to a 3-pt. stance is a shift. It's also a shift when the QB goes from an upright position behind the snapper to his final position putting his hands under the snapper. Another "classic" illegal shift if a player goes in motion simultaneous with the QB's shift.

[coachd]

Originally Posted by Ed Hickland

Motion in youth leagues seems to be a concept the "coaches" have a hard time mastering, therefore, the kids cannot do it correctly.

What is so difficult about "the offense must come set for one second"? It means nobody moves for one second, period. Shift into a three-point stance, nobody moves for one second; then, a back can go in motion.

Thanks for your reply. I agree with you. The coaches had clearly taught the kids to do the right thing at the wrong time. They got set first in a 2-pt stance, then went in motion... but then shifted into a 3-pt stance without stopping the motion.

It wasn't even a judgment call. The motion was always before the 3-pt stance. So the coaches taught the wrong thing and the Refs missed the call.

I understand and appreciate Refs who let the kids play. I'm sure you could throw a flag on almost every play with younger players. But we saw this in a scouting video and asked the Refs to watch for it before the game. We also brought it up when the game started and we were told that it was legal.

I think both the coaches and Refs were at fault on this one. I even asked some of the more-experienced coaches in our league about the play and while everyone knew about the rules for illegal motion, nobody knew for sure about the illegal shift. I played QB in high school and recognized a problem right away... the play didn't look right, but I thought it was Illegal Motion at first. As it turns out, it was an Illegal Shift.

I hope this Post helps other Coaches and Refs avoid this mistake.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by coachd

Thanks for your reply. I thought the play looked funny when I saw it on a scouting video and we mentioned it during a game, but the Ref Crew said that it was legal.

That's probably because at one time not too long ago, the NCAA & Fed definitions of "shift" specified that the change of position be "by a movement of both feet". At that time it was common practice for other players of A to make upper body movements like this while a back continued in motion, and I think a lot of people just don't know about the change yet.

Robert

[boboman316]

The call for an Illegial Shift belongs to the wing official. If your league went to four man, you could have 4 eyes instead of two looking at this. What league does your team participate in?

[coachd]

Originally Posted by boboman316

The call for an Illegial Shift belongs to the wing official. If your league went to four man, you could have 4 eyes instead of two looking at this. What league does your team participate in?

Thanks for your reply. We are in the Bill George Youth Football League (BGYFL)... with approx. 15 member towns in the western suburbs of Chicago.

I wasn't sure which Ref should make the call, but wouldn't the Head Referee also be responsible for the call since the man in motion is in the backfield and the other backs also shifted into a 3-pt stance?

I wouldn't think the Head Ref would use "it's not my call" as an excuse. And in this case, I doubt if another set of eyes would have helped. The violation occurred over and over again, so I suspect they didn't know the rule.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by boboman316

The call for an Illegial Shift belongs to the wing official. If your league went to four man, you could have 4 eyes instead of two looking at this. What league does your team participate in?

I'm a white hat on Friday nights and would have no qualms flagging this as well. I know the back is in motion and I can clearly see the line shifting.

[Ed Hickland]

Illegal shift, illegal motion, one arm, two arms...

Bottom line is the offense must come set for one second. That means ALL 11 players.

If a player goes in motion as the linemen go from 2-point to 3-point stance the offense has not been set for a second. Illegal shift.

Who calls it? Whoever sees it. I have had both wings and myself as the R have our flags out.

While I was not at the game and cannot and will not critique over the Web, many of us are guilty of letting this go because 1) they don't understand it themselves, or, 2) and I am as guilty as anyone, you just get tired of trying to explain to some crazy coach who now criticizes you for costing him the game when maybe if he learned the game it wouldn't be my fault.

Last season I called it five times on one team. After the second one I went to the coach and told him exactly what was wrong. He didn't get it. From then on I was costing him the game. After five tries I gave up!

[Forksref]

My rule of thumb: The QB must be set before anyone goes in motion. (I tell the coaches that.)

Failure to do that is the most common illegal shift that I see.

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by Forksref

My rule of thumb: The QB must be set before anyone goes in motion. (I tell the coaches that.)

Failure to do that is the most common illegal shift that I see.

REPLY: Agreed. Followed closely by a player going in motion as the rest of the team goes to their three-point stances.