Playoffs

[OverAndBack]

Originally Posted by Ref inSoCA

It takes at least 5 years to be a competent official.

Shoot, I think it takes a year just to figure out where to stand and how to blow your whistle. Second year you might start to get a clue about all the rules and mechanics. Third year you should be starting to get a good sense of judgment and deportment.

As a general rule, I completely agree with the notion that if you've not done this for five years, you'd almost have to be a mutant to be good enough to deserve to work a playoff game that isn't in a small state.

Not saying it can't happen. But no matter how good you think you are after 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or 10 years, you can be better, and there are still lots of guys better than you.

It seems to me that a lot of guys forget how rough they were when they started out and they seem to think they've always been as good as they are now.

[Texas Aggie]

There's no question you CAN be better at any level of experience, but saying 1 year or 50 years rings hollow to me. How many games did you work in each year? How many HS or varsity games, perhaps college games, did you work? How many scrimmages, spring games, camps, etc.? Sometimes the light just comes on earlier than it does for others, and as I've alluded to, previous and additional officiating experience helps tremendously.

We have guys in my chapter that work close to 80 subvarsity games a year. The work every night, Monday through Thursday, most weeks of the season. We have 11 full weeks, plus partial weeks like this year where I had a JV game for 2 private schools the week before what we call zero week. Jr. High games don't start in zero week and they usually end a week before the high school season ends, so its tough to work 11 or even 10 full weeks of football. But there are sub varsity Friday and Saturday games in some instances and guys that beat the bushes work a lot. None of this even gets into the pee-wee realm. Add that, and some guys work over 120 a year.

From what I've heard on this board, some guys talk about 25 games a year as a full season. Frankly, I worked about 45 Varsity and subvarsity games this year (no peewee) and I feel like I had a fairly light schedule. So for you guys that count 25-35 games as a year, what do you count 80+ as?

That's why you can't have hard and fast 5 year rules. On the other hand, our chapter did have some problems with crews of lesser experienced officials in some of the higher level playoff games. I think in those situations, the big stadiums and crowds (10-15K) might have gotten to them. I personally felt comfortable (except for the weather) in my playoff game this year. Would I have felt the same in front of 10K? I can't say, but things would have been different. THAT is probably the discussion that we need to have.

[grantsrc]

Originally Posted by MadCityRef

My first commish once said he feared officials with 3 to 5 years experience because, "they think they know everything, but actually know just enough to get themselves into trouble, and not enough to get themselves out of it."

That is so true.

I've thought about this topic some the last few days. My experiences are much like the first posters. When I moved to Missouri, I had 4 years of underclass experience with a few varisty games mixed in. I got picked up by an experienced crew, had a pretty good season, and got a playoff game. I don't think we were suppose to get one but we did a good enough job in the regular season to warrant one. Same thing next year, had a good year and got another playoff game, this time a bigger, more important game. The third year, had a good regular season schedule and got the biggest playoff game of the area. This was in my third year as a registered official in the state. Some may frown on this but the guys I worked with had years of experience, state championships under their belts, and two worked D2 college ball. We were a pretty good crew. To top it off, the next week we got another playoff game that year, a semifinal game in the second biggest class. So we had a quarterfinal in the largest class, and a semi in the second largest. My confidence was sky high.

All that came crashing down the next two years. Like the quote above said, you think you know everything at that stage of your career. The next two seasons I didn't get a playoff game because the rating I received from coaches was too poor. In fact, the first year our crew got a playoff game but I was replaced. In MO, we get ratings from coaches and that's a big part in our selection process. So I worked harder, learned the rules better, lost some weight, and did my best to get better with each game. This season our crew worked a state championship game.

I pass this along to reinforce what many have said here. Work hard, improve each week, and don't get discouraged. Many great officials have been burned by envy, jealousy, and being over-zealous. Don't trash or badmouth those that get the games you "think" you should be working. Work harder so you are better prepared for when you get those assignments.

Lastly, there is something to be said for the "old boy network" but it goes both ways. It can help you, but it can also hinder you. Don't run your mouth about so-and-so because it can hold you back because word gets around. On the other hand you want to make sure you are making positive connections with those that can help you learn and advance. An article written by John Bible in Referee magazine last year said that he felt no official is ready to work college ball until they get 10 varsity seasons under their belt. A little harsh maybe, but his point is valid. In fact, I read this article from time to time to remind myself not to get in too big of a hurry. Don't get in a hurry to advance/get the good games. One mistake can cost you.

[OverAndBack]

I still just don't think you can microwave your officiating career.

I mean, I know just from my experience that I'm considered a wuss because I felt that doing 22 or 25 games two seasons ago was a lot for me. But based on the time I had to devote to it and the other things in my life, that was it for me. That was all I could do.

Then I have the notion (which I expressed at the time), that while I think you can do 85 games a year (of course you can), can you really do justice to 85 games a year? Is it physically possible to be up for this 85 times a fall if you do other things? Are you getting 85 games worth of benefit out of your 85 games? Or is it just slogging through them?

If I took a brand-new, never-officiated before guy and gave him (unrealistically), 80 games his first year, would that make him 4 times better than someone who did 20 games? Would he necessarily be four times further along? I know there's no substitute for reps and making mistakes and learning from them, but is it realistic to say that without sufficient time to reflect and gather feedback, to let situations sit in your mind, to take in the counsel of others and to do the educational components necessary to really improve, that there aren't diminishing returns here? That after the 40th or 50th game, you're not getting that much more out of it in that particular season?

I don't know. That's just my theory. I think that you can't make yourself into a fourth-year official simply by doing four years' worth of games (for some guys) in one fall any more than you can make yourself a college senior by taking 80 hours your freshman year. You need to grow (up and older), you need to reflect, you need to take it in and process it, and I think some of that time is taken up just by driving from one field to another, washing your uniform for the fifth time that week or any of the other procedural things that just....take....time.

Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Ref inSoCA

You answered you own question "I think I'm beginning to be a good referee".

The key word is beginning. To be brutally frank, a 3rd year official has no business working a playoff game.

It takes at least 5 years to be a competent official. Here, no 3rd year official got a playoff game. Maybe their 4th year.

I disagree with this statement only because all officials do not have the same level of competency. I agree that it takes years to be a better official, but some people get it better than others. Some people played the game or coached the game for years and then they come to officiate when they already have some clues as to what they would need to do. As compared to someone that never played in HS let alone in the back yard and wants to become an official in that particular sport. And football is also is such a positional sport for an official that you might be exceptional at one position and terrible at another.

Peace

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by OverAndBack

Shoot, I think it takes a year just to figure out where to stand and how to blow your whistle. Second year you might start to get a clue about all the rules and mechanics. Third year you should be starting to get a good sense of judgment and deportment.

Years 1 and 2 of your system can be completly skipped if one goes through the proper training. Year 3 can also be skipped, either by the proper training or by using experience gained in officiating other sports.

Originally Posted by OverAndBack

I still just don't think you can microwave your officiating career.

Look at baseball. The first baseball game that one ever officiated could be in a short season league at the affiliated Minor League level. That is possible because those officials go through the proper training beforehand. Saying that someone needs to work X number of years to reach Y skill level is not correct.

[OverAndBack]

Originally Posted by LDUB

Years 1 and 2 of your system can be completly skipped if one goes through the proper training. Year 3 can also be skipped, either by the proper training or by using experience gained in officiating other sports.

Wow. Okay.

Am I the only one who's not completely sold on that?

Look at baseball. The first baseball game that one ever officiated could be in a short season league at the affiliated Minor League level. That is possible because those officials go through the proper training beforehand.

Is that true? Can someone really work in the NY-P League having never officiated baseball before?

Saying that someone needs to work X number of years to reach Y skill level is not correct.

Usually. There are exceptions to every rule.

I still think you're a mutant if you can do this and do it well right off the bat, no matter how much "training" you have. But I may be the only one who feels that way.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by OverAndBack

Is that true? Can someone really work in the NY-P League having never officiated baseball before?

It is true someone can work Minor League ball and not ever work a game. The reason is because there are pro schools that give umpires an ennormous amount of training. And there are people that go to these pro-schools and have never worked a single game of baseball before that time. In many cases people have been picked up with very limited experience before they attended pro-school.

Originally Posted by OverAndBack

Usually. There are exceptions to every rule.

I still think you're a mutant if you can do this and do it well right off the bat, no matter how much "training" you have. But I may be the only one who feels that way.

The point that I am making is that putting arbitrary numbers is not a very good judge of when someone is competent. Even after 5 years there are officials that do not get it and seem to never will. My crew chief is a former Division 1 Nose Tackle, he is a great umpire because he gets what is going on at that point of the game and how to call line blocking almost like no other official I know. His football experience makes him a lot better than someone that has been working 20 more years than my crew chief. Move him to another position and his level of ability does change and even his understanding of the other aspects of the game. I know I had to work really hard to become a decent back judge in the past few years because I was much better and more comfortable as a wing and Referee where I spent more time.

Now there might be rules that allow for eligibility for post season games and that is fine with me. But to say what someone can or cannot do only bases on how many years they have been working is a very good gauge. And I know training can speed up that process and even the number of games you work. You cannot judge that by how many years someone has worked.

Peace

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by OverAndBack

Wow. Okay.

Am I the only one who's not completely sold on that?

You really think it takes one year to learn where to stand? Assuming that the official only works one position there are only maybe 5 places he needs to learn. There are 2 positions for free kicks, one normal position and possibly another position if an onside kick is expected. Then there are scrimmage downs. One position for punts, one for field goals, and another for normal scrimmage downs. Does it really take a year to learn that?

Year two is learning the rules and mechanics. Anyone can learn the rules. It doesn't take two years to learn the rules. With proper studying it can take way less. People get out of it what they put into it, some people are diligent studiers of the rules. Some people are very good at remembering what they read. Some people participate in internet discussion forums. They are many factors which go into learning the rules therefore one cannot say that it takes X number of years to learn the rules.

The same goes for mechanics. Mechanics are learned by studying them and the practicing them on the field. This can be done outside of games.

Year three was judgment and deportment. This also can be taught. Learning what/how/when to look for greatly increases judgment. Not too long ago RichMSN posted that he had brought a first year official on to his crew and he work varsity games right from the start. That guy was a good official in other sports and it was easy to transfer over to football.

Originally Posted by OverAndBack

Is that true? Can someone really work in the NY-P League having never officiated baseball before?

Yes, that is correct. You could call up your nephew who has never officiated anything in his life and ask him if he wanted to work Minor League Baseball. If he said yes you could send him to school and he could be out on the field working in a short season A and/or rookie league this Summer. They go though long and intense training which teaches them everything they need to know to start officiating professional baseball. If a first year baseball official can work MiLB, why would anyone think that a third year football official could never be good enough to work a HS playoff game?

[Texas Aggie]

Is it physically possible to be up for this 85 times a fall if you do other things? Are you getting 85 games worth of benefit out of your 85 games? Or is it just slogging through them?

I don't think this is a problem for guys that want to do it. I personally don't, but I know guys that do want to work every single night and then are pissed when the season is over. I don't think I slogged in any of my 45 or so games this year or any of my 60 games last year. Adding 20-25 more wouldn't have been a problem for me if I had the kind of job that would allow it and wanted to do it. Yeah, in late August or early September, the 4th quarter of a second JV game can be rough since its humid as hell, my legs aren't quite in midseason form, and I'm so hungry, I start wondering if there are real beans in my bean bag. But I get through OK, and the younger guys do so without much thought.

My point was that experience, in football, is all about snaps. I've averaged 50 games a year for the three years I've worked. Is that 3 years the same as a guy who's done 30 games per year?

[TXMike]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

....
My point was that experience, in football, is all about snaps. I've averaged 50 games a year for the three years I've worked. Is that 3 years the same as a guy who's done 30 games per year?

Actually it is not that simple. Yes it may be helpful to be on the field more but it is possible for a guy to do what is called "Work 1 game 50 times" instead of "50 games:. The point being, if you are doing the same thing over and over but are doing it wrong, then how much experience do you really have. Not saying you fit that category, just saying it is not a simple matter of "I have worked 50 games a year". I know some guys in a Chapter I am familiar with who have been at this for over 20 years and who are in it for the money. They work as many nights a week as they can and do youth league stuff on the weekends. They are doing over 100 games a season. But, they are some of the worst officials possible.

If you are doing games without "adult supervision" (more experienced and competent officials) working with you, I really question the value of the experience. (And yes, if you are working with the guys I mentioned at the start of this post, I definitely question the value of THOSE games)

[Rick KY]

Every state is different, but here is a general outline of how playoffs are assigned here in KY. Most new officials work regular season varsity games in their 2nd or 3rd year.

In order to qualify for playoff assingments, officials must:
1. Achieve a minimum score on the annual test of 80%
2. Attend minimum number of training meetings (6 out of 9)
3. Attend state rules clinic annually
4. Have a state rating above the minimum after round 1
1 - Registered (all new officials)
2 - Approved (min 3 seasons, includes min test score requirement)
3 - Certified (min 5 years and all above requirements)
5. Register with both state and local assocication on time, and pay fees on time. Late registration or late payment of fees will DQ you from playoff games.

Local assignor assigns first 4 rounds after the state tells him which games he should assign. For 5th and final round the state asks each assignor to provide a list of potential final candidate officials. The state assigns final round from that list.

Local association politics still plays a part in which qualified officials get a game, or which game they may get. It also plays a role in who is on the short list for a final. I suspect politics in our association will always play a role.

[OverAndBack]

Like I said, usually. Of course there are exceptions to every rule. There are people who "get it" right away, and I'm sure we've all worked with guys with more longevity who either (a) don't get it or ( b ) had it and lost it a while back.

The guy who's done it for 35 years isn't necessarily better than the guy who's done it for 3. I'm talking general.

And I realize some here are Supermen who got it from day one and are married to Morgan Fairchild (who they've seen naked) and can divide by zero and who scare Chuck Norris - I don't know about those guys, but I know that my first year, my head was on a swivel and I just tried to survive it.

If you can pop out of a classroom or a clinic or a series of them ready to do varsity games, God love ya. If you can do playoff games by your third year, terrific. We need more quality officials in all sports at all levels.

I just don't think that's the norm, and I don't believe I ever will.

When I first got into this, I was at a clinic and someone asked the clinician in our group (a very, very good official who I respect and who was one of the guys whose counsel I always sought - JRut, you know the guy, is in FVFO) how long it took him before he felt he had a good handle on the rules and he said it was his fourth year.

Now, y'all don't know this guy, but let me tell you - it didn't take him four years because he's dumb or because he didn't work at it. He's very good at this and very dedicated to constantly learning and improving. But it struck me at the time that this wasn't an overnight process, and I still believe it.

[With_Two_Flakes]

Someone said earlier "does it take a year to learn where to stand?"

Of course not, that takes about 5 minutes of reading your mechanics manual.

What takes a year or more to learn is movement (and I would suggest a better measure would be eg. 100 games). I train rookies in my area of the UK and I like to think I do a reasonable job in preparing them before they go out on the field and buddying them during their first few games. But there is no substitute for having worked 10,000 snaps .
That should provide you with enough of those odd ball plays which teach you about when to stand still, when to move, how to move, where to move to, how fast to move there and where you should be looking during all of this....

[Texas Aggie]

if you are doing the same thing over and over but are doing it wrong, then how much experience do you really have.

I agree with you 100%, as I've said this exact thing on job interviews where I may not have had the years of experience that other applicants had, but wanted the job. In at least one case, the manager told me he'd never thought of it that way.

But this is just as true of the 5 year official as it is of the 3 year official. My point was that, everything else being equal, the 150 game 3rd year is a bit beyond (or at the very least, close enough to) the 100 game 5 year. Besides, in our chapter, most Thursday night (i.e. frosh/JV) crews include at least 1, and probably 2, 10+ year official. To the extent that they offer any critique, the lesser experienced officials won't be constantly doing it wrong, unless they either don't comprehend or don't care. If that's the case, they won't work on Friday nights and certainly won't get a playoff game.