A-11 Offense ??

[TXMike]

Is this legal under FED rules? No numbering requirements ?

http://a11offense.blogspot.com/2007/...1-offense.html

[waltjp]

Under FED Rules there exists a numbering exception for scrimmage kick formations. Under that exception there is no requirement to have 5 linemen numbers (50-79) on the line of scrimmage. Any player who is positioned on the line of scrimmage under this numbering exception remains ineligible throughout the down.


20....30.......40..88..25.......35....45
...80..............................85
................10....15


Under FED Rules, once a team sets in this formation Nos. 30, 40, 88, 25 and 35 are and will remain ineligible because they're in the game under the numbering exception. No amount of shifts or other movements will make them eligible receivers. (At least one of the players, No 10 or 15, must be 7 yards deep to make this a legal scrimmage kick formation)

[TXMike]

What are the requirements to have in order to call a formation a "scrimmage kick formation" ?

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by TXMike

What are the requirements to have in order to call a formation a "scrimmage kick formation" ?

REPLY: Mike...same as NCAA with one exception: It is not required that "it be obvious that a kick might be made." Hence, if the QB lines up 8 yards deep in the gun on 1st and ten, it's still a SKF in Fed rules.

[TXMike]

Looks like the NCAA added that phrase in 1996. I suspect it was due to issues over roughing/running into the kicker and not over numbering exception.

[Ed Hickland]

Don't know how they figure by NFHS rules that this could possibly be legal, that is, all 11 players being eligible.

In order to have eligibility you must be eligible by number AND position. Scrimmage kick formation relieves the numbering requirement of 5 between 50 and 79 but does not relieve the requirement that an eligible must be on the end of the line. The maximum number of eligible receivers is six scrimmage or non-scrimmage formation.

In the aforementioned post 30, 40, 88, 25 and 35 are all ineligible by position. Of course, the defense would be fooled the first time they saw it but once they realize this spread it should not be a problem.

[HLin NC]

They acknowledge that all 11 aren't eligible every play. What the arrows indicate is they shift different players to different sets, thus making the defense change their coverage.

If it were so great, the NFL would be doing it. Nobody outworks or out-thinks those guys.

[kdf5]

30, 40, 88, 25 and 35 are legal if they report in. I'm kidding, I'm kidding. Seriously though, how do they come up with all 11 being eligible? Can they play with, for example, 88 in the same position (between 40 & 25) but off the line? Would they then have to move 80 or 85 up to the line? The way I see this is they could have any combination of players on or off the line, as long as they had 5 on the line who were ineligible by position. Do I have that right?

[Ed Hickland]

Originally Posted by kdf5

30, 40, 88, 25 and 35 are legal if they report in. I'm kidding, I'm kidding. Seriously though, how do they come up with all 11 being eligible? Can they play with, for example, 88 in the same position (between 40 & 25) but off the line? Would they then have to move 80 or 85 up to the line? The way I see this is they could have any combination of players on or off the line, as long as they had 5 on the line who were ineligible by position. Do I have that right?

My guess is with 11 eligible numbers the defense is faced with trying to decide which players will be ineligible.

They could take any player and place that player in an ineligible position. Then shift, and exchange that player to an eligible position with either a previously eligible or ineligible player. Example, they come to the line and the interior linemen go into a 2-point stance. Then 25 shifts to position where 45 is currently. 45 shifts to 85's position with 85 taking 25's initial position.

Imagine the defense trying to determine coverage. Even worst, the officiating crew trying to track eligible/ineligible, strong side/weak side.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by HLin NC

They acknowledge that all 11 aren't eligible every play. What the arrows indicate is they shift different players to different sets, thus making the defense change their coverage.

As I said in my earlier post, the offense can not shift from this position to allow any of the covered players eligible. If a player is positioned as an interior lineman under the numbering exception he remains ineligible throughout the down regardless of how the team shifts.

The only possible way I can see this working is if the team originally lines up with everyone except the snapper lined up behind the line as a back and then stepping up to assume a position on the line.

I saw a team use this formation this year (actually saw the same team twice) but they didn't remove their linemen. During the pre-game conference with the coach we were told they throw a screen pass from this formation.

[BoomerSooner]

I think the idea behind it is that on play 1 using the formation above we have 20, 80, 10, 15, 85, 45 eligible, however, on play 2 using a different formation we could have 20, 80 40, 88, 25, and 45 eligible. It's probably a system that uses the 2 QB's, a center, and 8 WR's utilizing quick throws and misdirection to counter the absence of an O-line. The defense thus has difficulty countering with a standard defense of 4 DL 3 LB and 4 DB. Even with the right defensive personel on the field they still have to match up with the eligible receivers from play to play.

[Sonofanump]

Originally Posted by waltjp

the team originally lines up with everyone except the snapper lined up behind the line as a back and then stepping up to assume a position on the line.

This is the most important thing to remember when the team is shifting to make 7 on the line and determine who is ineligible. Once 20 and 45 are on the end and set, all players on the line are ineligible by position.

[Reffing Rev.]

Creativity has no ends. Based on another thread, someone will call this 'not football play' and illegal deception because it puts the defense at a disadvantage. BTW, they are not saying that all 11 players are eligible on every down, but based on different sets different players could be eligible on successive downs. So that on first down the 5 eligible receivers might not be eligible on the 2nd down. Coaches think outside the box, and officials must learn to think outside the box too. Otherwise, those officials who can think outside the box will get black-marked for knowing the rules and allowing a completely legal play because the officials who rely on 'the way it used to be' cannot accept it because it it is unusual.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by Sonofanump

This is the most important thing to remember when the team is shifting to make 7 on the line and determine who is ineligible. Once 20 and 45 are on the end and set, all players on the line are ineligible by position.

Do they even have to set to be ineligible by position or do they just have to line up in scrimmage kick formation?

[RoyGardner]

I believe from what's previously been in the news about this "A-11" formation the players (except the snapper) all initially line up off the line. That leaves the maximum of 10 players as possible eligible receivers. Before the snap some subset of 6 of them shift up to the line which then defines the 7 lineman, and the 2 ends. At that time the 5 interior lineman become ineligible by formation. It basically means that until the final formation is set, which could be as late as 1 count before the snap, the defense is kept guessing as to which players will be eligible. In fact, depending on how they line up, the center could be on the end of the line and be eligible.