A-11 Offense ??

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by cmathews

and you have the audacity to say football officials are on a power trip....wow....

I think you've mis-interpreted his post.

He's saying, I believe, that there is more respect in the game of rugby than there is in football. That includes respect for the judgement of game officials.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

"Recent"? Unless you're talking Canadian, that value of "recent" makes for the really looooong view of American football! In another thread I'm criticizing Mr. Redding for a quote that essentially equates his lifetime (or less) with the entire history of football, but looks like the opposite problem here. (Please don't tell me they made that change recently in Football Canada or CFL.)

They haven't: FC and the CFL still permit the kicking team to obtain and advance a legal kick-off. I can't imagine that ever changing - it is so engrained into our game.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

First of all, most officials call what's there. They don't seek more control or want more penalties. Most of them, in fact, want fewer. The game gets over faster. Plus, the crews that get the best schedules around here are the ones that have the fewest penalties (and they all know that). So you couldn't be more wrong on this point.

Second, we don't want any more officials out on the field or court than is necessary to do our job. I don't want more than 3 officials in basketball nor more than 7 in football (5 in subvarsity). So, you're wrong here as well.

I love it when people that know nothing about officiating start talking about what officials want.

Agreed with everything, except for the bold statement. While preventative officiating is desired, and even stressed here in Canada, and can be used for reducing the number of penalties, I prefer that quality flags be thrown, rather than a low quantity of flags be thrown. For quality officials, it is rare to have a large number of flags because they effectively use other tools during the game.

[wwcfoa43]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Agreed with everything, except for the bold statement. While preventative officiating is desired, and even stressed here in Canada, and can be used for reducing the number of penalties, I prefer that quality flags be thrown, rather than a low quantity of flags be thrown. For quality officials, it is rare to have a large number of flags because they effectively use other tools during the game.

I agree with both!

1. That quality flags should be the deciding factor and not quantity.

2. That officials in the group at the top of the game will be judged as better if they have fewer flags. This may not be accurate but does present a objective measure which is too good to pass up for many people.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by wwcfoa43

I agree with both!

1. That quality flags should be the deciding factor and not quantity.

2. That officials in the group at the top of the game will be judged as better if they have fewer flags. This may not be accurate but does present a objective measure which is too good to pass up for many people.

Yup.

Did a wild card playoff game the other day. I was deep, and during one punt (ball in flight), the CB was holding a WR a bit down the field. My decision was to say "stay legal - don't hold". The CB let go of the WR. He still was able to provide adequate blocking during the play, but I like to think that I may have prevented a foul. (I stole the "stay legal" phrase from officiating basketball.)

I would even say that once per game I tell one player to tell his teammate (with number provided) to ________ (insert suggestion to prevent a foul). Eg: "tell number 85 to watch his timing when hitting the LOS".

I prefer doing this than to throwing a hanky. The obvious ones, though, you gotta throw. Facemasks, an obvious offside, etc....

We teach our side guys to yell if B is in the NZ, and hopefully they move back before the snap. You can't argue when with an official if he's yelling at you to move back and you don't move at all.

[JPC75]

More rules = More refs = More control...

I can believe that most refs on this site are conscious and try not to over officiate and ruin the game, and that is probably why they are on this site. The problem, however, are the majority of football refs do not visit this site and do not care to be educated and love to throw "Hankies".

Ruins the game.

----

WaltJP

On the rugby note, I do realize that I miss 90% of the rugby game I officiate (although this seems a little over exaggerated) after you clarified that fouls that occur behind my back are missed.

You are also right that I am aware of behind my back justice. This is all part of the sport and it is a judgment call for the ref. I might notice a black eye or broken nose on one player complaining to me that he was roughed off the ball by another player and when his opposing number turns up with a black eye or broken nose, I am not usually left wondering where it came from. However, I will call it if I see it. This is part of the game.

And I was not being arrogant by saying that the rugby ref’s word is last. It is just known and respected within the sport.

Jimmy

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by JPC75

More rules = More refs = More control...

I can believe that most refs on this site are conscious and try not to over officiate and ruin the game, and that is probably why they are on this site. The problem, however, are the majority of football refs do not visit this site and do not care to be educated and love to throw "Hankies".

Ruins the game.

I don't think that you have accounted for some things.

Transfer of knowledge. An official doesn't have to visit a site like this one to not be a heavy hanky-thrower. There are many posters here, but there are even more lurkers. If they read the posts here and take some of the info back to the local groups, I hope that valuable information is passed onto other officials.

Contributors like Bob M., TX Mike, grant, Goodman, JRut, Welpe, Mr. Hickland, I could go on and on, provide valuable 411 for everyone within a degree or two, or three.

[daggo66]

Can't you guys give this threadjack it's own thread? I cringe whenever I see this title near the top.

[Fadamor]

As a VHSL head linesman, what amazed me is how much of the YouTube video of the A11 offense contained illegal activity that should have been flagged. The first clip had the "deep" back only 6 yards from the line of scrimmage (illegal formation) and the next play shown had an illegal shift due to the final motion man not waiting 1 second after the previous shift to start his motion.

The A11 formation may be legal, but it apparently spawns a plethora of OTHER illegal activity - all in the name of "confusing the defense" (and apparently the officials, too, as none of the things I noted were flagged). Keep the offense within the other rules and the defenses facing them might have less difficulty adjusting.

[TXMike]

Someone sent me a DVD of the offense and there were an incredible amount of flags for illegal formations and shifts (and this from a team that "invented" the offense.)

[Fadamor]

Originally Posted by TXMike

Someone sent me a DVD of the offense and there were an incredible amount of flags for illegal formations and shifts (and this from a team that "invented" the offense.)

Yeah, I figured as much. If there were that many un-flagged infractions that were in their promotional video, I'm sure there were many more downs that did catch flags (and therefore weren't suitable for their video).

[OverAndBack]

Originally Posted by JPC75

if it was left up to the refs, they would surely vote to have more refs on the field which would allow for more ref control, more penalties and more stoppages.

Jimmy

You know jack sh!t about football officials and officiating, obviously.

If it was left up to us, we'd vote to have no one pass or kick the ball and that's about it.

But (a) it ain't left up to us, ( b) it's never going to be left up to us and (c) the last two things on earth we want is for there to be more penalties and more stoppages.

Most of us aren't control freaks. We're not frustrated ex-jocks. I've been at this five years and have yet to meet a martinet. There's simply nothing in it that's worth everything you have to go through if your goal is just to screw up a great game for kids who are 17-18 years old.

Anyone who was really like that wouldn't last long in this avocation because most people would simply refuse to work with him or her.

Because that's not what we're about.

[STEVED21]

Originally Posted by Fadamor

Yeah, I figured as much. If there were that many un-flagged infractions that were in their promotional video, I'm sure there were many more downs that did catch flags (and therefore weren't suitable for their video).

Just watched the video. Looks like an illegal formation on every other play. Also, it seems easy to key the type of play off the inside WR. If he goes down field( as in ineligible) it's a screen. If he doesn't ( and drops back to block) it's a long pass. If I can see this in 10 minutes, imagine what a good coach can do.

[Ed Hickland]

Originally Posted by STEVED21

Just watched the video. Looks like an illegal formation on every other play. Also, it seems easy to key the type of play off the inside WR. If he goes down field( as in ineligible) it's a screen. If he doesn't ( and drops back to block) it's a long pass. If I can see this in 10 minutes, imagine what a good coach can do.

This has to be the longest post in the history of this forum!

I can see where the A-11 at first impression would drive a coach and his team crazy. While as officials we know players are ineligible by position a high school LB or DB may be confused the first time they see the A-11. You can only imagine the ruckus on the sideline in that first game.

But once a video is available and a coach has a chance ot school his players it would easy to defend against the A-11.

Maybe I missed it but somewhere in the post there was a discussion of the number of officials. From the video it appears the Piedmont games have only four officials. This would make an excellent case for the fifth official who could easily ID the players who are ineligible by position and not number.

[JPC75]

If you care to see how one of the 15 officials on the field can control a football game, check this out...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ck_spf9a_vQ

There is no argument that there are too many referees with too much control with too many stupid rules in American Football...

One long predictable commercial with some football in between.
I long to go back to the day when money does not govern the game.