A-11 Offense ??

[TXMike]

Is this legal under FED rules? No numbering requirements ?

http://a11offense.blogspot.com/2007/...1-offense.html

[waltjp]

Under FED Rules there exists a numbering exception for scrimmage kick formations. Under that exception there is no requirement to have 5 linemen numbers (50-79) on the line of scrimmage. Any player who is positioned on the line of scrimmage under this numbering exception remains ineligible throughout the down.


20....30.......40..88..25.......35....45
...80..............................85
................10....15


Under FED Rules, once a team sets in this formation Nos. 30, 40, 88, 25 and 35 are and will remain ineligible because they're in the game under the numbering exception. No amount of shifts or other movements will make them eligible receivers. (At least one of the players, No 10 or 15, must be 7 yards deep to make this a legal scrimmage kick formation)

[TXMike]

What are the requirements to have in order to call a formation a "scrimmage kick formation" ?

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by TXMike

What are the requirements to have in order to call a formation a "scrimmage kick formation" ?

REPLY: Mike...same as NCAA with one exception: It is not required that "it be obvious that a kick might be made." Hence, if the QB lines up 8 yards deep in the gun on 1st and ten, it's still a SKF in Fed rules.

[TXMike]

Looks like the NCAA added that phrase in 1996. I suspect it was due to issues over roughing/running into the kicker and not over numbering exception.

[Ed Hickland]

Don't know how they figure by NFHS rules that this could possibly be legal, that is, all 11 players being eligible.

In order to have eligibility you must be eligible by number AND position. Scrimmage kick formation relieves the numbering requirement of 5 between 50 and 79 but does not relieve the requirement that an eligible must be on the end of the line. The maximum number of eligible receivers is six scrimmage or non-scrimmage formation.

In the aforementioned post 30, 40, 88, 25 and 35 are all ineligible by position. Of course, the defense would be fooled the first time they saw it but once they realize this spread it should not be a problem.

[HLin NC]

They acknowledge that all 11 aren't eligible every play. What the arrows indicate is they shift different players to different sets, thus making the defense change their coverage.

If it were so great, the NFL would be doing it. Nobody outworks or out-thinks those guys.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by HLin NC

They acknowledge that all 11 aren't eligible every play. What the arrows indicate is they shift different players to different sets, thus making the defense change their coverage.

As I said in my earlier post, the offense can not shift from this position to allow any of the covered players eligible. If a player is positioned as an interior lineman under the numbering exception he remains ineligible throughout the down regardless of how the team shifts.

The only possible way I can see this working is if the team originally lines up with everyone except the snapper lined up behind the line as a back and then stepping up to assume a position on the line.

I saw a team use this formation this year (actually saw the same team twice) but they didn't remove their linemen. During the pre-game conference with the coach we were told they throw a screen pass from this formation.

[kdf5]

30, 40, 88, 25 and 35 are legal if they report in. I'm kidding, I'm kidding. Seriously though, how do they come up with all 11 being eligible? Can they play with, for example, 88 in the same position (between 40 & 25) but off the line? Would they then have to move 80 or 85 up to the line? The way I see this is they could have any combination of players on or off the line, as long as they had 5 on the line who were ineligible by position. Do I have that right?

[Ed Hickland]

Originally Posted by kdf5

30, 40, 88, 25 and 35 are legal if they report in. I'm kidding, I'm kidding. Seriously though, how do they come up with all 11 being eligible? Can they play with, for example, 88 in the same position (between 40 & 25) but off the line? Would they then have to move 80 or 85 up to the line? The way I see this is they could have any combination of players on or off the line, as long as they had 5 on the line who were ineligible by position. Do I have that right?

My guess is with 11 eligible numbers the defense is faced with trying to decide which players will be ineligible.

They could take any player and place that player in an ineligible position. Then shift, and exchange that player to an eligible position with either a previously eligible or ineligible player. Example, they come to the line and the interior linemen go into a 2-point stance. Then 25 shifts to position where 45 is currently. 45 shifts to 85's position with 85 taking 25's initial position.

Imagine the defense trying to determine coverage. Even worst, the officiating crew trying to track eligible/ineligible, strong side/weak side.

[Reffing Rev.]

Creativity has no ends. Based on another thread, someone will call this 'not football play' and illegal deception because it puts the defense at a disadvantage. BTW, they are not saying that all 11 players are eligible on every down, but based on different sets different players could be eligible on successive downs. So that on first down the 5 eligible receivers might not be eligible on the 2nd down. Coaches think outside the box, and officials must learn to think outside the box too. Otherwise, those officials who can think outside the box will get black-marked for knowing the rules and allowing a completely legal play because the officials who rely on 'the way it used to be' cannot accept it because it it is unusual.

[TXMike]

Originally Posted by Reffing Rev.

Creativity has no ends. Based on another thread, someone will call this 'not football play' and illegal deception because it puts the defense at a disadvantage. BTW, they are not saying that all 11 players are eligible on every down, but based on different sets different players could be eligible on successive downs. So that on first down the 5 eligible receivers might not be eligible on the 2nd down. Coaches think outside the box, and officials must learn to think outside the box too. Otherwise, those officials who can think outside the box will get black-marked for knowing the rules and allowing a completely legal play because the officials who rely on 'the way it used to be' cannot accept it because it it is unusual.

Don't be so quick to poo-poo the "way it used to be". The rules are made and modified over the years for some specific purpose. SO even if you and your "rule expert" buddies think some "new" play is legal by the rules, it is very possible that someone who has been around for awhile and who says it is illegal, is saying so because he knows what the intent of the rule was when it came into being. It appears this foolishness might be legal under Fed rules but I assure you it is illegal under NCAA rules (except for one very specific time).

[KurtBryan]

Dear Football Officials:

I am the head football coach at Piedmont High School in northern, CA, and this past season we ran a new offense called (the A-11 Offense); which stands for All Eleven Players Potentially Eligible, see link below please:

http://a11offense.blogspot.com/2007/...1-offense.html

We are a small school regularly competing against larger schools and we had to try and somewhat negate sheer size from the defensive side of the ball vs. our offense. As you know, on any given play only 5 players can catch a downfield pass, and once a man is covered, he remains ineligible for that play, etc.

1. After much research and diligent study for more than a year, we submitted our ideas, X's and O's and interpretations for this new offense to the NFHS, and CIF and of course it was approved after they did their due diligence and also conversed with us on exactly what we were going to do. Not only should the those officials be applauded for their open minded approach to this new style of offense, but they should also be praised for not discriminating against us for being different and trying something new.

2. What is just a crucial, is that all of the actual Officials who worked our football games this past season were extremely complimentary of our new brand of offense, and they found it easy to handle. "Much easier in person than simply viewing it on a chalkboard," was the feedback we received weekly.

3. For college and pro teams that can recruit and/or draft the exact personnel they want to use, the A-11 is probably not a big deal to them (and we also know the rules are different at those levels). However, for a small public high school like ours, developing the A-11, using it this initial season and being successful is something our kids, coaches and now our entire community is truly proud of.

4. We have received 95% great and amazingly positive feedback: in person, phone calls and emails from coaches, fans, and Officials about how exciting the A-11 Offense is! What a treat for our program and the players are really proud of it. Now that we are openly sharing our system with fellow coaches, fans and officials nationwide, it is amazing and they can teach us too as we share together.

5. For the thousands of small schools like us around the country competing weekly against bigger faster stronger teams, this is a thrilling evolution of the game, and thank you again to the officials and open minded people for allowing innovation in football to begin at the high school level.

* If you need further info, please contact me direct:

Sincerely,

Kurt Bryan
Head Football Coach, Piedmont High School
C: 510-410-4717
E: [email protected]

[waltjp]

Coach, you lost me at item 1 when you started talking about submitting ideas to the NFHS and CIF for their approval and when you started talking about 'open minded' officials who did not discriminate against you because you tried something new.

It's not my job to judge your offense, or even comment on it. I'm just there to administer the rules.

[wisref2]

In item 1, I'm pretty sure the coach is talking about officials (representatives) of the NFHS and CIF - not "officials" who wear the stripes.

It's a creative offense - and perfectly legal. It could work even better if they sometimes started out in a normal shotgun rather than scrimmage kick formation. They could shift into scrimmage kick before the snap, bringing in the numbering exception. Would add to the difficulty of knowing who to cover.