Illegal Forward Pass from End Zone on Free Kick

[bisonlj]

Saw this odd play in a college game and I don't know if the officials got it right.

K kicks off to start the second half and R80 catches it 5 yards deep in the end zone. Another player from R steps in front of him to keep him from running it out. R80 never takes a knee and the covering official doesn't blow the play dead. R80 then flips the ball foward to the official who jumps out of the way because it is still a live ball. The ball is recovered by R at the 3 yard line as the official throws a flag for an illegal forward pass.

The officials huddle and the R announces touchback with no explanation. Was this because they were giving him the benefit of the doubt for not running it out? Should this have been an illegal forward pass? If it was, would the enforcement be a safety or would it be from the 20 since K had the force that put it in the end zone? If it's the latter, K would have declined the penalty to pin R back at the 3. It was an interesting play that raised a lot of questions.

phansen...I know you saw this play as well so I'm curious to hear your thoughts.

[TXMike]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

Saw this odd play in a college game and I don't know if the officials got it right.

K kicks off to start the second half and R80 catches it 5 yards deep in the end zone. Another player from R steps in front of him to keep him from running it out. R80 never takes a knee and the covering official doesn't blow the play dead. R80 then flips the ball foward to the official who jumps out of the way because it is still a live ball. The ball is recovered by R at the 3 yard line as the official throws a flag for an illegal forward pass.

The officials huddle and the R announces touchback with no explanation. Was this because they were giving him the benefit of the doubt for not running it out? Should this have been an illegal forward pass? If it was, would the enforcement be a safety or would it be from the 20 since K had the force that put it in the end zone? If it's the latter, K would have declined the penalty to pin R back at the 3. It was an interesting play that raised a lot of questions.

phansen...I know you saw this play as well so I'm curious to hear your thoughts.

In the most technical sense, the foul for the illegal fwd pass would have been a safety. No way does the ball go to the 3. It was a pass so was dead as soon as it hit the turf. I can understand the crew huddling and making a decision to say the ball was dead before the player tossed it, therefore it should be a touchback, B 1/10 at the 20. Both teams thought the play was over and although not supported by rule, could be the right thing to do to consider it dead.

[Jim D]

We had a similar play last weekend. K punted into a strong wind -the ball went up and came down on the line of scrimmage, bounced a few yards downfield and then bounced back behind the line and into the arms of K 76. The player stood there for a few seconds, everyone stopped and then he tossed the ball to an official. At that point we blew it dead.

That may not be the technically correct way to handle that play but it was the smart way. No cheap fouls, no cheap points, no confusion and both teams were OK with what happened.

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by TXMike

In the most technical sense, the foul for the illegal fwd pass would have been a safety. No way does the ball go to the 3. It was a pass so was dead as soon as it hit the turf. I can understand the crew huddling and making a decision to say the ball was dead before the player tossed it, therefore it should be a touchback, B 1/10 at the 20. Both teams thought the play was over and although not supported by rule, could be the right thing to do to consider it dead.

Good point...yes... the ball became dead as soon as it was incomplete.

If they had enforced the illegal forward pass though, would the enforcement spot be the end zone (thus safety) or the 20. If the kick is the force into the end zone and it became dead there, it can't be safetey correct? Let's say he ran around and was tackled before getting out of the end zone, it would still be a touch back.

This is creating more questions for me than answers so I appreciate any clarity anyone can provide.

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by Jim D

We had a similar play last weekend. K punted into a strong wind -the ball went up and came down on the line of scrimmage, bounced a few yards downfield and then bounced back behind the line and into the arms of K 76. The player stood there for a few seconds, everyone stopped and then he tossed the ball to an official. At that point we blew it dead.

That may not be the technically correct way to handle that play but it was the smart way. No cheap fouls, no cheap points, no confusion and both teams were OK with what happened.

I had a very similar play as well except I blew it dead as soon as K touched it on the ground. There were no R players in the area and I realized after I could have told K it was a live ball and they could try to advance it. My error was that I thought at the time that it was a dead ball so technically I had an IW. I didn't realize the ball had bouded behind the original line of scrimmage. Not a major factor in a big blowout and nobody realized it but me.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

I had a very similar play as well except I blew it dead as soon as K touched it on the ground. There were no R players in the area and I realized after I could have told K it was a live ball and they could try to advance it. My error was that I thought at the time that it was a dead ball so technically I had an IW. I didn't realize the ball had bouded behind the original line of scrimmage. Not a major factor in a big blowout and nobody realized it but me.

For a long time that was a dead ball in Fed. Fed rules used to seem to want to maximize the number of conditions that would make the ball dead, presumably by the logic that fewer injuries occur once the ball is dead. They seem to have lightened up on that in the past decade or so.

Meanwhile I saw for the 2nd time in the Big Apple Youth Football League this season team K allowed to advance its own recovered free kick ball (for a TD in each case), with different officials in the two games with those occurrences, so probably I should conclude BAYFL does allow that. AYF uses Fed rules in its playoffs, but allows its affiliates to use any rules locally.

Robert

[TXMike]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

Good point...yes... the ball became dead as soon as it was incomplete.

If they had enforced the illegal forward pass though, would the enforcement spot be the end zone (thus safety) or the 20. If the kick is the force into the end zone and it became dead there, it can't be safetey correct? Let's say he ran around and was tackled before getting out of the end zone, it would still be a touch back.

This is creating more questions for me than answers so I appreciate any clarity anyone can provide.

The enforcement spot for an ilegal forward pass is spot of foul so it would be enforced from EZ, i.e. safety

[NDRef]

I was at the game---North Dakota State University at Minnesota. Minnesota kick-off went into the endzone. NDSU receiver caught and just stood there and made no effort to leave the endzone. He then casually approached the nearest official on the sideline closest to him (not the referee) and tossed the ball to him. This official (who is not responsible for the endzone) dropped his flag for the potential illegal forward pass and blew the play dead. The referee (who is responsible for the endzone) huddled the officials together and decided to call a touchback. The explanation that was given was that the receiver had "given himself up" and had no intention of returning the kick, however, he did not kneel at any time. Apparently (help us out here TXMike or other NCAA rule guys) the NCAA rule does not require the kneel down, but can and will award a touchback if the player has basically given up and it is evident that the player does not intend to come out of the endzone---referee covering the play was just "patient".

This was the explanation given to both coaches and the Minnesota coach had no issues with it.

On a side note--NDSU won the game 27-21 and half of the 60,000 people in the Metrodome were NDSU fans--it was awesome to be a part of. Div 1-AA transitional (not eligible for playoffs, but ranked #1) school beats one of the big boys (not so big this year, but we'll take it)--by the way, the Bison also beat D-1A Central Michigan as well.

Bisonlj--you should have been there, as you can tell by my screen name (and I can tell by yours) it was a very proud day to be from North Dakota. We both know who phansen is and he was pretty proud of his alma mater as well (understatement).

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by NDRef

Bisonlj--you should have been there, as you can tell by my screen name (and I can tell by yours) it was a very proud day to be from North Dakota. We both know who phansen is and he was pretty proud of his alma mater as well (understatement).

Thanks for the explanation. I wondered if there was some NCAA rule that was applied to give them a touchback. I still don't know if it could be considered a safety since it was the kick that was the force that put it there. If he started running and was tackled in the end zone, would that not also be a TB?

I wish I was at the game! I live in Indy and with games on Friday nights it's not easy to get up there Saturday (last week was round 1 of playoffs as well). I did watch it on the Big 10 Network with a fellow Bison though. We also were at the game last year where they beat Ball State. With today's big win they are now 18-1 the past 2 years and 3-1 against I-A teams. The only loss was last year at Minnesota 10-9 and they really should have won that game. I hope Coach Bohl is able to stick around to lead the team in the playoffs next year in their first year of eligibilit but I bet he'll be a hot prospect for some mid-major or smaller BCS schools this year.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

K kicks off to start the second half and R80 catches it 5 yards deep in the end zone. Another player from R steps in front of him to keep him from running it out. R80 never takes a knee and the covering official doesn't blow the play dead. R80 then flips the ball foward to the official who jumps out of the way because it is still a live ball. The ball is recovered by R at the 3 yard line as the official throws a flag for an illegal forward pass.

CANADIAN RULING:

As soon as R80 catches the ball in the EZ, the clock starts. We don't have a touchback, so we don't have that case where the clock starts only when the returner crosses into the field of play. (This case may be an NFL-only thing, though.)

R80's flip forward is an offside pass subject to penalty: this act is flagged and the spot of the origin of the offside pass must be known: most officials will mark that spot with the flag, or use a mental note. This spot is the EZ. When R recovers at the 3, the play is dead.

The offside pass is not defined as a foul, but it does restrict R from legally advancing the ball

K's option:

• decline the offside pass, and it is R 1D/10 @ R-3
• accept the offside pass, and the result of the play is like the play ended at the point of origin of the offside pass, which is why the covering official needs to know that spot. A kickoff that goes into the EZ and is recovered in the EZ and goes dead in the EZ without getting out of the EZ is the infamous rouge: single point for K, then R 1D/10 @ R-35.

The fact that the offside pass (subject to penalty) is not defined as a foul means that there is not "one more play" if times runs out during this play, as there is with all other reasons for a flag to be thrown. So if K is losing by a point, or the game is tied, K can tie the game, or win the game, respectively, if this situation were to happen.

[MJT]

Originally Posted by NDRef

I was at the game---North Dakota State University at Minnesota. Minnesota kick-off went into the endzone. NDSU receiver caught and just stood there and made no effort to leave the endzone. He then casually approached the nearest official on the sideline closest to him (not the referee) and tossed the ball to him. This official (who is not responsible for the endzone) dropped his flag for the potential illegal forward pass and blew the play dead. The referee (who is responsible for the endzone) huddled the officials together and decided to call a touchback. The explanation that was given was that the receiver had "given himself up" and had no intention of returning the kick, however, he did not kneel at any time. Apparently (help us out here TXMike or other NCAA rule guys) the NCAA rule does not require the kneel down, but can and will award a touchback if the player has basically given up and it is evident that the player does not intend to come out of the endzone---referee covering the play was just "patient".

This was the explanation given to both coaches and the Minnesota coach had no issues with it.

I found a AR which would support the above red/bold statement.
Part of AR 8-6-1-II says "However, if in the judgment of the official there is perceptible time during which the team B player made no attempt to advance after the play (interception in this AR), declaring a touchback is justified.

Looks like the officials new the rulebook pretty dang good!!! Now all of us working NCAA will get this one right in the future.