Blocks/Hits away from the play

[psujaye]

I see this happen in pop warner games on a regular basis; the play/ball is downfield and kids trailing the play that are not involved use it as an opportunity to find someone to hit. Sometimes the hits are what would be considered legal blocks, sometimes they are apparent cheap shots. When i'm the R, I always look off the ball (once one of the other refs has the play) for these hits. I try to flag them as dead ball personal fouls (even if they would be considered legal blocks since the contact is well away from the play) without making anything up (for safety issues).
What are everyone's thoughts on this? again, this is 105-135lb pop warner FB. I've seen very few hits as I am describing in the school games i work.
I'm open to suggestions; some officials i've spoken with say flag it even if its a 'legal block' and others say not to.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by psujaye

I see this happen in pop warner games on a regular basis; the play/ball is downfield and kids trailing the play that are not involved use it as an opportunity to find someone to hit. Sometimes the hits are what would be considered legal blocks, sometimes they are apparent cheap shots. When i'm the R, I always look off the ball (once one of the other refs has the play) for these hits. I try to flag them as dead ball personal fouls (even if they would be considered legal blocks since the contact is well away from the play) without making anything up (for safety issues).
What are everyone's thoughts on this? again, this is 105-135lb pop warner FB. I've seen very few hits as I am describing in the school games i work.
I'm open to suggestions; some officials i've spoken with say flag it even if its a 'legal block' and others say not to.

CANADIAN PHILOSOPHY:

These hits are penalized as live ball fouls. Yes, they do often negate scores.

[refbuz]

I think that you gotta call hits like these away from the play (20-30 yards), even if they are "legal" hits. The fact that they are so far away and on a player that is not part of the play is what makes it an unnecessary roughness foul. You could be asking for a world of hurt, as the offended team might look for retaliation if you don't. If I am close enough, I will use some preventative officiating and letting them know that I am there in order to avoid having to throw that foul.

Are you always enforcing as a Dead Ball foul though? If you know for certain that the ball wasn't in the end zone at the time of the foul, you could take the points off the board and enforce from the flag. If you don't know, then you'd enforce as a dead ball.

They'll learn not to do that real quick if it costs their team a TD.

[Jim D]

NFHS Rule 9-4-3-b "No player shall charge into or throw an opponent to the ground after he is obviously out of the play."

This is a personal foul even if the ball is still live. The "legallity" of the block does not enter in to this. Since this is a saftey issue, I wouldn't be too lenient especially if I thought a kid was "head hunting".

[psujaye]

Originally Posted by refbuz

I think that you gotta call hits like these away from the play (20-30 yards), even if they are "legal" hits. The fact that they are so far away and on a player that is not part of the play is what makes it an unnecessary roughness foul. You could be asking for a world of hurt, as the offended team might look for retaliation if you don't. If I am close enough, I will use some preventative officiating and letting them know that I am there in order to avoid having to throw that foul.

Are you always enforcing as a Dead Ball foul though? If you know for certain that the ball wasn't in the end zone at the time of the foul, you could take the points off the board and enforce from the flag. If you don't know, then you'd enforce as a dead ball.

They'll learn not to do that real quick if it costs their team a TD.

If it is close to the whistle/after the play, i've been enforcing it as a dead ball foul. If its obvious to everyone it is during the play, then as a live ball foul. I'm trying to make it a habit of talking to the players to prevent anything once the ball/play is down field.
I just want to make sure i'm handling it correctly.

[refbuz]

I don't see anything wrong with the way you're handling it.

Talking to the players works wonders.

[TXMike]

I'd want to be absolutely sure the blockee is clearly not participating in the play or trying to do so before flagging an otherwise legal hit away from the play. Some of these kids will run after the play and might be getting downfield to be there in the event of a loss of possession. I see no problem with them being blocked. The kid that has clearly given up is NOT someone who should be subject to a free shot.

[waltjp]

These are not hard to distinguish. You'll see the blocker sizing up his victim and then taking a charge at him.

[Cal]

this used to be a fairly common occurance before nf included the rule in the book. since we started enforcing the rule, almost all of these occurances have dissappeared.

[grantsrc]

I say make every effort to make this a live ball foul, not a dead ball foul. Penalize them for the cheap shot and the stupidity of the hit by taking the points off the board. Send the message that these hits are unnecessary. This is not a football related move and all it does is create an atmosphere of hostility. Call it early, call it often, and it will go away.

As for the talking to, in Pop Warner this should be flagged, not a talking to. There's no need for it.

[refbuz]

Originally Posted by grantsrc

As for the talking to, in Pop Warner this should be flagged, not a talking to. There's no need for it.

I think that your missing the point. We are talking about trying to talk to a player BEFORE the hit, not AFTER

If your close enough to a player to say "don't hit him" before he does, are you trying get their attention by talking to the player or are you just watching it happen and throwing a flag?

This is a foul that can be avoided with a little off ball preventative officiating.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by grantsrc

Send the message that these hits are unnecessary. This is not a football related move and all it does is create an atmosphere of hostility.

Our Jr. Pee-Wees did this a lot in practice sessions (!), and it definitely does!

[Texas Aggie]

If its an "otherwise" legal block, that means by definition it wasn't against a player "out of the play" (or however you want to say that). Those hits are illegal (at least in NCAA) as a rule.

To me, you always call cheap shots and sort those out as needed. The gray area is illegal blocks in the back or holding, say, 10-15 yards or more behind the play. Unless they fall into or come close to the cheap shot category, I'm likely to let those go. No advantage gained.

[BuckeyeRef]

I usually see this in the Jr. High games in our area. In fact, I just had one two nights ago. 40 yards behind the runner, offensive player turns and puts shoulder right into chest of defensive player. Defensive player was knocked down and touchdown was called back. Coach insisted there was no such penalty in the rule book.

In my experience I can see these hits coming and will tell the players not to hit someone. Most times when I have called this penalty the coaches are pretty understanding and tell the player there is no reason to block someone who is 40 yards behind the play.

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by BuckeyeRef

...Coach insisted there was no such penalty in the rule book.

REPLY: And if you had your rule book on the field, you could have taken it out and showed him! (Sorry BuckeyeRef..it's Friday and I couldn't resist.) I hope you don't mind.