Moving Pile

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by PaulJak

I don't think I was clear enough, in exactly the scenario you are picturing where B takes it out of the A players hands and the ball is never airborne I've got a fumble by Fed definition and therefore a bag. The A player has lost player possession in a manner that is not handing, passing or a legal kick. The key to this being a fumble is that handing, as defined by the rule book, can not occur between opponents. So even though visually it looks like handing, its not handing as the rules define it.

When B strips the ball from A, regardless of if the ball is ever airborne, it is a fumble.

Interesting. It goes back to why a bag is needed. In Canada, we bag a fumble because if there is an IW, it goes back to the team that last had possession, at the Point of Fumble. Hence, the need for the bag. If there is a "takeaway" and an IW goes off, the covering official has to judge if A ever lost possession.

It does make sense that handing cannot occur between opponents.

I actually have a copy of Fed books from '05, but it's not like I ever have time to read them.

[PaulJak]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Interesting. It goes back to why a bag is needed. In Canada, we bag a fumble because if there is an IW, it goes back to the team that last had possession, at the Point of Fumble. Hence, the need for the bag. If there is a "takeaway" and an IW goes off, the covering official has to judge if A ever lost possession.

It does make sense that handing cannot occur between opponents.

I actually have a copy of Fed books from '05, but it's not like I ever have time to read them.

For Fed, the "why" we would bag this is related to penalty enforcement.

For instance: 1st and 10 on the A20, A2 runs a sweep and is stripped (no airborne football here) at the A35 yard line. During A2s run, B11 blocks A11 below the waist at the A24 yard line. Wouldn't you need to know where A2 lost possession to properly enforce the penalty? (In this example, the basic spot is the end of the run - A35, the B foul is behind the basic spot, so enforce from the basic spot - 15 yards. 1st and 10 for A from the 50)

Do you do something different in this case?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by PaulJak

For Fed, the "why" we would bag this is related to penalty enforcement.

For instance: 1st and 10 on the A20, A2 runs a sweep and is stripped (no airborne football here) at the A35 yard line. During A2s run, B11 blocks A11 below the waist at the A24 yard line. Wouldn't you need to know where A2 lost possession to properly enforce the penalty? (In this example, the basic spot is the end of the run - A35, the B foul is behind the basic spot, so enforce from the basic spot - 15 yards. 1st and 10 for A from the 50)

Do you do something different in this case?

Scrimmage play penalties are enforced from point ball held or point of last scrimmage, depending if the line to gain was reached, or not reached, respectively.

In your scenario, the block below the waist is enforced from either PBH or PLS, depending on where the ball was when the foul happened. You didn't specify that data, so I can't give the final ruling.

[andy1033]

The foul for blocking below the waist is enforced from the EOR which is where the ball was stripped.