Question on Penalty Enforcement

[rockyroad]

Friday night's game (HS Varsity)...two flags on the same play. 3rd down and 7 on the defender's 12 yard line...The first flag was holding called on our slot back (it was a great call, the kid did it and got caught). After the whistle was blown, the defender who was held, turned and kneed our slot back in the stomach - flag was tossed...the crew got together and talked about it, then marched off 10 yards for the holding, then 15 yards for the USC, and told us it was 4th and two...since the holding call was accepted, shouldn't third down have been replayed? The WH explained that since there were two flags thrown, we couldn't have the down over...is that correct??

[Smiley]

That was incorrect. Down should have been replayed.

[Kirby]

Originally Posted by Smiley

That was incorrect. Down should have been replayed.

Agree with Smiley

[Theisey]

You had a live ball foul, followed by a dead ball foul.

Enforce the live ball foul as you normally would. Since a hold is not a loss of down foul, part of the penalty acceptance enforcement is to repeat the down.

Then enforce the dead ball foul against Team-B, the down is still the same.

result: and I will assume the team-A hold was at B-12 since you didn't say where that foul really was.
Team-A's ball 3rd and 6 at the B-11.

Note: the dead ball foul while being 15 yards can only be enforced as half the distance from the B-22.

[rockyroad]

Thanks everyone...that was what we thought, but considering the time and score of the game, we weren't going to put up too much of an argument...and yes, the hold was essentially at the LOS as the slot back pretty much tackled the outside backer as he stepped up against our sweep... it is interesting that not only did they mess up the down, but they marched off the full 15 yards for the USC foul. Guess we lost some/gained some on that one.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Friday night's game (HS Varsity)...two flags on the same play. 3rd down and 7 on the defender's 12 yard line...The first flag was holding called on our slot back (it was a great call, the kid did it and got caught). After the whistle was blown, the defender who was held, turned and kneed our slot back in the stomach - flag was tossed...the crew got together and talked about it, then marched off 10 yards for the holding, then 15 yards for the USC, and told us it was 4th and two...since the holding call was accepted, shouldn't third down have been replayed? The WH explained that since there were two flags thrown, we couldn't have the down over...is that correct??

Assess 10 yards for the hold. Then 25 yards + AFD + DQ for rough play.

Ends up Team A 1D/10 @ B-11.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: You're also right that the penalty should have been of the 'half-the-distance' variety. BTW...the foul you describe by your opppnents was not unsportsmanlike conduct; it was a personal foul. They may have messed that up as well.

[JS63]

NCAA: Mark the live ball hold. Then turn and mark the DB PF half the distance and AFD.

[bossman72]

Originally Posted by Bob M.

REPLY: You're also right that the penalty should have been of the 'half-the-distance' variety. BTW...the foul you describe by your opppnents was not unsportsmanlike conduct; it was a personal foul. They may have messed that up as well.

Does that really make a difference what you call it? I never really knew there was a difference. I just thought that USC was a type of personal foul...

[MJT]

Originally Posted by bossman72

Does that really make a difference what you call it? I never really knew there was a difference. I just thought that USC was a type of personal foul...

BIG DIFFERENCE!

1. A USC foul must be marked down cuz if the same player gets a second USC, he is ejected.
2. All USC fouls are noncontact fouls. You cannot have a contact USC foul.
3. All USC fouls are enforced from the SSpot, whether they are LB or DB fouls.

It is very important for reasons 1 and 3 above that you call them correctly as USC or PF. Remember ALL USC fouls are noncontact. That can help you keep them straight. Punch, kick, late hit,... PFouls -- swearing, taunting, spiking the ball,... USC and counts towards ejection if 2 are given to same player.

[jjrye22]

Originally Posted by MJT

BIG DIFFERENCE!

1. A USC foul must be marked down cuz if the same player gets a second USC, he is ejected.
2. All USC fouls are noncontact fouls. You cannot have a contact USC foul.
3. All USC fouls are enforced from the SSpot, whether they are LB or DB fouls.

It is very important for reasons 1 and 3 above that you call them correctly as USC or PF. Remember ALL USC fouls are noncontact. That can help you keep them straight. Punch, kick, late hit,... PFouls -- swearing, taunting, spiking the ball,... USC and counts towards ejection if 2 are given to same player.

Not to be nit-picky, but there is indeed a contact USC. Intentionally contacting an official (9.2.4) is described as an USC.
Illegal interference (9.1.4.a) might also be a contact USC - depending on what happened, but a sub or coach tackling the ball carrier on a breakaway out of the team zone would be one (had that happen here a few years ago!).

Ok, I guess it is to be nit-picky, but everyone here likes to say that we shouldn't make generalizations.

James

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by bossman72

Does that really make a difference what you call it? I never really knew there was a difference. I just thought that USC was a type of personal foul...

REPLY: Another BIG difference is that the penalty for a USC is always enforced from the succeeding spot. The penalty for a PF may be enforced from the succeeding spot, but may be enforced using standard basic spot enforcement if the foul occurred during a live ball. Even if a USC foul occurs during a live ball, it's enforced from the succeeding spot, meaning that anything that happened during the down--including possibly a score by the offending team--is allowed to stand.

[MJT]

Originally Posted by jjrye22

Not to be nit-picky, but there is indeed a contact USC. Intentionally contacting an official (9.2.4) is described as an USC.
Illegal interference (9.1.4.a) might also be a contact USC - depending on what happened, but a sub or coach tackling the ball carrier on a breakaway out of the team zone would be one (had that happen here a few years ago!).

Ok, I guess it is to be nit-picky, but everyone here likes to say that we shouldn't make generalizations.

James

Ok, I could make the generalization that all player to player USC fouls are noncontact.

[simpson]

Rockyroad,

Just curious, did they eject the player who kneed your guy in the stomach?

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by simpson

Rockyroad,

Just curious, did they eject the player who kneed your guy in the stomach?

Nope...no ejection. And the WH did step toward the sideline and explain it to us as a holding on us and then a USC on the other team and that it would be 4th down. Like I said, we were confused - doesn't always take much - but we didn't try to argue the point. It was either the third or fourth penalty like that (late hits, action after the whistle, etc.) they had had to call in the 4th quarter (all on the other team!) and it was obvious the crew was getting frustrated...