The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Football

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 23, 2006, 02:19pm
Esteemed Participant
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Vancouver, WA
Posts: 4,775
Question on Penalty Enforcement

Friday night's game (HS Varsity)...two flags on the same play. 3rd down and 7 on the defender's 12 yard line...The first flag was holding called on our slot back (it was a great call, the kid did it and got caught). After the whistle was blown, the defender who was held, turned and kneed our slot back in the stomach - flag was tossed...the crew got together and talked about it, then marched off 10 yards for the holding, then 15 yards for the USC, and told us it was 4th and two...since the holding call was accepted, shouldn't third down have been replayed? The WH explained that since there were two flags thrown, we couldn't have the down over...is that correct??
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 23, 2006, 02:21pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Ten Mile, Tn
Posts: 236
That was incorrect. Down should have been replayed.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 23, 2006, 02:24pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smiley
That was incorrect. Down should have been replayed.
Agree with Smiley
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 23, 2006, 02:41pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 1,464
You had a live ball foul, followed by a dead ball foul.

Enforce the live ball foul as you normally would. Since a hold is not a loss of down foul, part of the penalty acceptance enforcement is to repeat the down.

Then enforce the dead ball foul against Team-B, the down is still the same.

result: and I will assume the team-A hold was at B-12 since you didn't say where that foul really was.
Team-A's ball 3rd and 6 at the B-11.

Note: the dead ball foul while being 15 yards can only be enforced as half the distance from the B-22.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 23, 2006, 03:03pm
Esteemed Participant
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Vancouver, WA
Posts: 4,775
Thanks everyone...that was what we thought, but considering the time and score of the game, we weren't going to put up too much of an argument...and yes, the hold was essentially at the LOS as the slot back pretty much tackled the outside backer as he stepped up against our sweep... it is interesting that not only did they mess up the down, but they marched off the full 15 yards for the USC foul. Guess we lost some/gained some on that one.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 23, 2006, 03:06pm
Fav theme: Roundball Rock
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Near Dog River (sorta)
Posts: 8,558
Lightbulb Canadian Ruling

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockyroad
Friday night's game (HS Varsity)...two flags on the same play. 3rd down and 7 on the defender's 12 yard line...The first flag was holding called on our slot back (it was a great call, the kid did it and got caught). After the whistle was blown, the defender who was held, turned and kneed our slot back in the stomach - flag was tossed...the crew got together and talked about it, then marched off 10 yards for the holding, then 15 yards for the USC, and told us it was 4th and two...since the holding call was accepted, shouldn't third down have been replayed? The WH explained that since there were two flags thrown, we couldn't have the down over...is that correct??
Assess 10 yards for the hold. Then 25 yards + AFD + DQ for rough play.

Ends up Team A 1D/10 @ B-11.
__________________
Pope Francis
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 24, 2006, 10:46am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Clinton Township, NJ
Posts: 2,065
REPLY: You're also right that the penalty should have been of the 'half-the-distance' variety. BTW...the foul you describe by your opppnents was not unsportsmanlike conduct; it was a personal foul. They may have messed that up as well.
__________________
Bob M.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 24, 2006, 12:09pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 12
NCAA: Mark the live ball hold. Then turn and mark the DB PF half the distance and AFD.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 24, 2006, 11:02pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob M.
REPLY: You're also right that the penalty should have been of the 'half-the-distance' variety. BTW...the foul you describe by your opppnents was not unsportsmanlike conduct; it was a personal foul. They may have messed that up as well.

Does that really make a difference what you call it? I never really knew there was a difference. I just thought that USC was a type of personal foul...
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 24, 2006, 11:19pm
MJT MJT is offline
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Alton, Iowa
Posts: 1,796
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossman72
Does that really make a difference what you call it? I never really knew there was a difference. I just thought that USC was a type of personal foul...
BIG DIFFERENCE!

1. A USC foul must be marked down cuz if the same player gets a second USC, he is ejected.
2. All USC fouls are noncontact fouls. You cannot have a contact USC foul.
3. All USC fouls are enforced from the SSpot, whether they are LB or DB fouls.

It is very important for reasons 1 and 3 above that you call them correctly as USC or PF. Remember ALL USC fouls are noncontact. That can help you keep them straight. Punch, kick, late hit,... PFouls -- swearing, taunting, spiking the ball,... USC and counts towards ejection if 2 are given to same player.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 25, 2006, 02:34am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Germany
Posts: 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJT
BIG DIFFERENCE!

1. A USC foul must be marked down cuz if the same player gets a second USC, he is ejected.
2. All USC fouls are noncontact fouls. You cannot have a contact USC foul.
3. All USC fouls are enforced from the SSpot, whether they are LB or DB fouls.

It is very important for reasons 1 and 3 above that you call them correctly as USC or PF. Remember ALL USC fouls are noncontact. That can help you keep them straight. Punch, kick, late hit,... PFouls -- swearing, taunting, spiking the ball,... USC and counts towards ejection if 2 are given to same player.
Not to be nit-picky, but there is indeed a contact USC. Intentionally contacting an official (9.2.4) is described as an USC.
Illegal interference (9.1.4.a) might also be a contact USC - depending on what happened, but a sub or coach tackling the ball carrier on a breakaway out of the team zone would be one (had that happen here a few years ago!).

Ok, I guess it is to be nit-picky, but everyone here likes to say that we shouldn't make generalizations.

James
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 25, 2006, 04:39pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Clinton Township, NJ
Posts: 2,065
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossman72
Does that really make a difference what you call it? I never really knew there was a difference. I just thought that USC was a type of personal foul...
REPLY: Another BIG difference is that the penalty for a USC is always enforced from the succeeding spot. The penalty for a PF may be enforced from the succeeding spot, but may be enforced using standard basic spot enforcement if the foul occurred during a live ball. Even if a USC foul occurs during a live ball, it's enforced from the succeeding spot, meaning that anything that happened during the down--including possibly a score by the offending team--is allowed to stand.
__________________
Bob M.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 25, 2006, 10:14pm
MJT MJT is offline
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Alton, Iowa
Posts: 1,796
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjrye22
Not to be nit-picky, but there is indeed a contact USC. Intentionally contacting an official (9.2.4) is described as an USC.
Illegal interference (9.1.4.a) might also be a contact USC - depending on what happened, but a sub or coach tackling the ball carrier on a breakaway out of the team zone would be one (had that happen here a few years ago!).

Ok, I guess it is to be nit-picky, but everyone here likes to say that we shouldn't make generalizations.

James
Ok, I could make the generalization that all player to player USC fouls are noncontact.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 26, 2006, 10:40am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 62
Rockyroad,

Just curious, did they eject the player who kneed your guy in the stomach?
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 26, 2006, 11:19am
Esteemed Participant
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Vancouver, WA
Posts: 4,775
Quote:
Originally Posted by simpson
Rockyroad,

Just curious, did they eject the player who kneed your guy in the stomach?
Nope...no ejection. And the WH did step toward the sideline and explain it to us as a holding on us and then a USC on the other team and that it would be 4th down. Like I said, we were confused - doesn't always take much - but we didn't try to argue the point. It was either the third or fourth penalty like that (late hits, action after the whistle, etc.) they had had to call in the 4th quarter (all on the other team!) and it was obvious the crew was getting frustrated...
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
federation penalty enforcement question sloth Football 4 Tue Jan 24, 2006 07:06pm
Penalty enforcement AJones Football 9 Wed Nov 02, 2005 08:26pm
penalty enforcement question jjb Football 2 Thu Sep 16, 2004 06:46am
Penalty enforcement David Hymel Football 3 Thu Sep 18, 2003 10:04am
Penalty Enforcement ajkottke Football 15 Thu Oct 14, 1999 12:30am


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:06pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1