Fouls by A and B during the same DB Interval

[breynolds]

Situation: (Federation) Third and 4 at the 50 yard line. After the ball is declared ready for play and before the snap, B60 jumps across the neutral zone and contacts snapper, A50. A61 then commits a personal foul by shoving B60. Ruling? Please cite rule or case reference.

Thanks.

[FeetBallRef]

Read it backwards.

Encroachment on B & DB personal foul on A.

Rule 10 Sec 2. Art. 4... Penalties for dead-ball fouls are administered separately and in the order of their occurrence. A dead-ball foul is not coupled with a live-ball foul or another dead-ball foul to create a double or multiple foul.

Rule 9 Sec 4. Art. 3b Personal Foul, Charging Opponent when ball is dead.

Rule 7 Sec 1. Art. 5 Encroachment.

[Kirby]

FeetBallRef,

Do you have it backwards? I have that B60 jumped into the NZ and A60 committed the PF.

Therefore, enforce the DB fouls in the order they occurred and award a new series if after any enforcement the ball is beyond the line to gain.

The end result is 1st and 10 for A from the A-40 yardline.

FeetBallRef gave one rule reference that applies, the other one is I believe in Rule 5 somewhere (sorry, don't have books in the office this morning).

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by breynolds

Situation: Third and 4 at the 50 yard line. After the ball is declared ready for play and before the snap, B60 jumps across the neutral zone and contacts snapper, A50. A61 then commits a personal foul by shoving B60. Ruling?

CANADIAN RULING:

When you mention the 50 yard line, you are obviously clarifying that the LS is right at mid-field. Our mid-field is the 55, so I will adjust the ruling for that change.

B60 is flagged for offside. A61 is flagged for UR. B's foul is 5 yards, A's is 15. The net is 10 yards against A + repeat the down. Result: A 3D/14 @ A-45.

[breynolds]

Kirby got it. It was the awarding of the new series that was confusing me. For some reason, I wanted to enforce both DB fouls before determining whether or not it results in a first down.

But, 5-1-2a says, "After a first, second, or third down, a new series of downs shall be awarded only after considering the effect of any act during the down other than non-player or unsportsmanlike conduct fouls by A, and any dead-ball foul by B.

It does not mention anything about DB fouls by A or DB fouls by both teams. I can't find any case book situation on it either, so I agree...

1st and 10 for A from A40.

Thanks.

[breynolds]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

CANADIAN RULING:

When you mention the 50 yard line, you are obviously clarifying that the LS is right at mid-field. Our mid-field is the 55, so I will adjust the ruling for that change.

B60 is flagged for offside. A61 is flagged for UR. B's foul is 5 yards, A's is 15. The net is 10 yards against A + repeat the down. Result: A 3D/14 @ A-45.

Yes, thank you. I often forget that our friends to the north have a little more field to cover.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by breynolds

Yes, thank you. I often forget that our friends to the north have a little more field to cover.

In fact, the difference is much more than people realize. It's especialyl noticable in my town because we have a team that plays in the NAFL.

US field: 360' x 160' = 6,400 yards².
(http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=...are+yards&meta=)

Cdn field: 150 yards x 65 yards = 9,750 yards².
(http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=...are+yards&meta=)

Ratio is 9,750:6,400 = 1.52:1.

And just 2 years ago we went to 7-men in NCAA-equivalent football. We could use 6 because of the mechanics that were developed allowed for coverage: migration of deep officials.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by breynolds

Kirby got it. It was the awarding of the new series that was confusing me. For some reason, I wanted to enforce both DB fouls before determining whether or not it results in a first down.

But, 5-1-2a says, "After a first, second, or third down, a new series of downs shall be awarded only after considering the effect of any act during the down other than non-player or unsportsmanlike conduct fouls by A, and any dead-ball foul by B.

It does not mention anything about DB fouls by A or DB fouls by both teams. I can't find any case book situation on it either, so I agree...

1st and 10 for A from A40.

Wait a minute...you take the rule book's silence re fouls in the dead ball interval by A to mean the new series is awarded after A's foul? What about the mention of one working to the exclusion of others?

I read what you quoted just the opposite. The dead ball foul by B occurs 1st, resulting in a new series, then the foul by A, resulting in 1st & 25 for A at A's 40.

Robert

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

... The dead ball foul by B occurs 1st, resulting in a new series, then the foul by A, resulting in 1st & 25 for A at A's 40.

REPLY: You're partially right. Yes...the dead ball foul by B results in a new series for A. But no, the chains are not set until all dead ball fouls--including the one by A--prior to the ensuing ready for play are enforced. So it will be 1st-10.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Bob M.

REPLY: You're partially right. Yes...the dead ball foul by B results in a new series for A. But no, the chains are not set until all dead ball fouls--including the one by A--prior to the ensuing ready for play are enforced. So it will be 1st-10.

Then Fed sure has a strange way of putting it!