Hmmm..........what do you think?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Sonofanump

I think that the head of our officials knows what he is doing.
If not, I don't think that he would be in the Big Ten.

Does the NFL have a rule book at the sides?
Does the CFL have a rule book at the sides?
Does the AFL have a rule book at the sides?
Does the Pac10 have a rule book at the sides?
Does the SEC have a rule book at the sides?
Does the Big10 have a rule book at the sides?
Does the Big12 have a rule book at the sides?
Does the ACC have a rule book at the sides?
Does the MAC have a rule book at the sides?
Does NY have a rule book at the sides?
MA?
PA?
TX?
CA?
Of the 50 states, how many mandate a rule book at the sides?
I bet Oiho might be the only state. I don't care what your Big10 ref says.... he still ****s every day like I do.

[Sonofanump]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Does the CFL have a rule book at the sides?

We allow touchbacks, mid field is the 50 yard line and call it ham. I'll be proud to be different. We have a procedure that works fine if the situation arises to address the rule.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by parepat

The big picture is simply that you and those like you have an ego that overshadows the reason why you are out there.

Unlike you, I HAVE been in a game where we pulled out the book. Guess what, NONE of the things you described occured.

No one ever said that you pull out the book "everytime we have a question".

It simply doesn't happen.

This has nothing to do with ego - it has to do with perception. I HAVE been on the field when a rulebook was brought out during a disputed ruling. Granted - this was baseball, but the prinicipal is the same. As expected, the umpire was right, the coach (and TD as it turned out) was wrong. However - for the rest of the game it was a litany of "Why don't you pull out the rulebook over THAT one, blue!", and I'm told it carried over into that PU's next game. Pulling out the book to look something up that is not COMPLETELY abnormal only costs the officiating crew it's credibility, and VERY rarely helps anything.

I understand that you are confident in your rules knowledge, as am I. However, there will come a time at some point where both of us would benefit from access to the rule or case book. In those occassions it is my opinion that I would swallow my pride, go to the book and get the call right.

You and others like you feel that the harm of this outweighs the need to get the call right. I get it. I don't agree with it but I get it.

I admit that it's conceivable that our entire crew would miss one. But it's not a matter of "swallowing our pride" - it's a matter of demolishing our credibility.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by BuckeyeRef

Everyone keeps making this claim, but ignores the reality of this claim. I have been doing games for nine years in Ohio. Only one time in nine years have we had to refer toa book. That was during a coaches requested conference with the referee. After that, there was no request to check the book on every play or every call. There has been no "slippery slope". Ohio has been bringing the books on the field for over a decade now and there has been no problem. No repeated requests to check the book. Like I said, in my nine years we've only used the book one time.

You know what... since you have this rule, and your whole state has no problem pulling out the rulebook everytime there's a disagreement, perhaps the fans/players/coaches/etc in Ohio are a little more used to seeing it happen, and maybe you DON'T get the backlash.

I assure you, in the rest of the free world, where pulling out the rulebook during a game is unheard of, there WOULD be a backlash and a hit to our on-field credibility.

[mikesears]

Originally Posted by Jim D

A lot of the plays involve multiple rules, defenitions, case book plays and misc. items from Reddings, the state, etc. so proving something to a coach could really be a problem.

Secondly, it's one thing to know the rules and then another to be able to quickly find the appropriate place in the book while some coach is arguing with you.

Finally, even with the rule book in front of them, I don't know that they would listen. I had a coach Friday that insisted a USC could be carried over to the kick off. He kept telling me that it was a point of emphasis this year and I was wrong. Because he was so sure he knew the rule and of the way 8-2-2 is written, I'm not sure even a rule book in front of me I would have been able to convince him in a reasonable amount of time.

I'm with Jim D on this one. How often do we say we have to understand defintions to be a good official? Just look around this forum when we have to cobble together several sections in order to answer some of those quirky plays.

I also agree with someone else who asked when it stops? Do we get the rulebook out if we simply have questions about something even if nobody complains?

I can't imagine the contractor I hired to run electricity into my home consulting the electrical codes. There are certain expectations we have when someone is hired as a contractor for a job. We expect that if they are licensed that they will know the rules governing the job and that they will be able to get the job done correctly? Would i demand an electrical contractor bring his copy of the electrical codes with him to the job? No. That is his decision. Would I fault him if he did? No, but I would lose faith in his ability to do a routine job if I found him consulting the book for something I thought he should know.

For those of you that live in states where such a thing is mandated, do what is required ("when in Rome...."). But for me, I won't carry a rulebook onto the field.

Maybe the shortage of officials has gotten so bad that we are putting crews on the field that really don't know the rules.

[BuckeyeRef]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

You know what... since you have this rule, and your whole state has no problem pulling out the rulebook everytime there's a disagreement, perhaps the fans/players/coaches/etc in Ohio are a little more used to seeing it happen, and maybe you DON'T get the backlash.

I assure you, in the rest of the free world, where pulling out the rulebook during a game is unheard of, there WOULD be a backlash and a hit to our on-field credibility.

Where do you get the opinion that we pull out the rulebook every time there's a disagreement? Havent't you read the posts. In nine years it has only happened once. I hardly call that pulling out the book every time there is a disagreement. And amazingly, no one ever said another word after that one time. Noone even asked to look at the book again. In fact, I have had that coach in games since then, and he has never said anything about it again. The book is there for the very rare instances it is needed.

[refbuz]

Originally Posted by BuckeyeRef

Where do you get the opinion that we pull out the rulebook every time there's a disagreement? Havent't you read the posts. In nine years it has only happened once. I hardly call that pulling out the book every time there is a disagreement. And amazingly, no one ever said another word after that one time. Noone even asked to look at the book again. In fact, I have had that coach in games since then, and he has never said anything about it again. The book is there for the very rare instances it is needed.

Is going to the book something that occurs more frequently across the state and you're just lucky that its happened to you only once? Or is it something that only happens once or twice a season, if that? How about other sports in OH, are the officials in those sports required to carry rule books as well or is it just Football?

Going to the book on the field is a no win situation for an official. Because if your right it comes off as "See Coach, WE were right, and YOU were wrong..." If your wrong, it comes off as "These guys are incompetent". I just think that there are better ways to handle that situation than going to a rulebook on the sidelines.

Personally, I just don't see the benefit of carrying the book onto the field if you've only used it 1 time in 9 years. Assuming 10-12 games a year, thats around 1% of the games that you've worked, and its ridiculously lower than that if your looking at it on a per play basis.

That is like walking around in scuba gear when it rains because there MIGHT be a flood.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Sonofanump

We allow touchbacks, mid field is the 50 yard line and call it ham. I'll be proud to be different. We have a procedure that works fine if the situation arises to address the rule.

At least you know how to follow properly and use a lightbulb.

Funny you mention touchbacks, because we have them as well. Maybe not in all the same circumstances as the US game, but we do have them.

Like the guy earlier said, that's great that Oiho has their own procedure. Their officials should follow it.

[parepat]

Originally Posted by Jim D

A lot of the plays involve multiple rules, defenitions, case book plays and misc. items from Reddings, the state, etc. so proving something to a coach could really be a problem.

Secondly, it's one thing to know the rules and then another to be able to quickly find the appropriate place in the book while some coach is arguing with you.

Finally, even with the rule book in front of them, I don't know that they would listen. I had a coach Friday that insisted a USC could be carried over to the kick off. He kept telling me that it was a point of emphasis this year and I was wrong. Because he was so sure he knew the rule and of the way 8-2-2 is written, I'm not sure even a rule book in front of me I would have been able to convince him in a reasonable amount of time.

All of these are valid points, but are irrelevant to the issue. No one said bringing the books on the field is a cure all. It is simply a RESOURCE. WHy are you all so threatened by it.

[parepat]

Originally Posted by Mike L

Just what is the Ohio procedure for book review? (too expensive to get video review I suppose). Does the coach have to just complain about the call or does he have to call for a conference and maybe risk a timeout? Is it just the head coach or any assitant as well? What if you're sure but the coach still complains, do you have to go to the book to prove you're right? And if you don't, how is that really any different than not even having the book? And like CO Ump said, what if there is disagreement amoung the officials but the coaches are clueless? Do you go to the book or just slip it by them? Does it take only 1 official to question or at least a tie in the "vote"? Or is it just left up to the referee to decide one way or the other?
I can understand the good intentions of getting the ruling right, but this is just such an unprofessional way to go about it and opens the crew up to so much crap I would think it would create many more problems than it could solve.
PS - I would hope my 747 pilot already knows how to start up engines rather than trying to open up a book while struggling to keep an unstable aircraft from falling out of the sky. I guess the same could be said for officials knowing the rules, huh?

PSS-it appears some of this may have been answered while I was typing away.

There is no rule regarding if or when we use the book. We are simply required to have it with us.

P.S. If you think that
1.Your pilot knows everything that there is to know about a machine with millions of parts or:

2. That there are not written resources on board available for the flight crew of a 747 you are naive.

[parepat]

Originally Posted by CO ump

I agree!
It was a long winded way to say rule books do not belong on the field. Period!




I disagree
I can pull out the rule book if I had it with me and so chose, I simply choose not to open pandoras box.

Some officials choose to talk to assistants as if they were the HC, others do not. Some officials will engage sideline spectators, others choose not to. Some officials keep the whisle in their mouth, others choose not to. Some officials look up rules during the game, others choose not to.

This is the point. If you Choose not to bring it, you can't refer to it.

[parepat]

Originally Posted by Mike L

It sounds like Ohio has instituted it's own version of the "coach's challenge", except he can do it as many times as he feels like (as long as he's willing to risk the 5 yard penalty).
I can think of a couple coaches around these parts that would make that little idea such a pleasure.

No. Our rule is no different than yours with respect to Coaches conferences.

[parepat]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Does the NFL have a rule book at the sides?
Does the CFL have a rule book at the sides?
Does the AFL have a rule book at the sides?
Does the Pac10 have a rule book at the sides?
Does the SEC have a rule book at the sides?
Does the Big10 have a rule book at the sides?
Does the Big12 have a rule book at the sides?
Does the ACC have a rule book at the sides?
Does the MAC have a rule book at the sides?

I don't know, but they all have a RESOURCE in the Replay official who I would bet has access to the book. Does this RESOURCE diminish your integrity and lead to the destruction of your control of the game? NO. Isn't this a far more intrusive attack on your power than the presence of a stinkin Rule Book?



Does NY have a rule book at the sides? Don't know
MA? Don't know
PA? DON"T KNOW
TX? MOST TEXANS CAN"T READ
CA? WHO CARES!
Of the 50 states, how many mandate a rule book at the sides?
I bet Oiho might be the only state. I don't care what your Big10 ref says.... he still ****s every day like I do.

He's a light eater. Might be every other day.

[CO ump]

Originally Posted by parepat

P.S. If you think that
1.Your pilot knows everything that there is to know about a machine with millions of parts or:

2. That there are not written resources on board available for the flight crew of a 747 you are naive.

Whether officiating or flying, when the crap hits the fan you better have all your ducks in a row or be able to improvise quickly, if not, you're going down in flames, books or no books.

[parepat]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

You know what... since you have this rule, and your whole state has no problem pulling out the rulebook everytime there's a disagreement, perhaps the fans/players/coaches/etc in Ohio are a little more used to seeing it happen, and maybe you DON'T get the backlash.

No where on this topic has anyone advocated "pulling out the rule book everytime there is a disagreement" In fact the posts indicate that the use of the rule book is very, very rare.

I assure you, in the rest of the free world, where pulling out the rulebook during a game is unheard of, there WOULD be a backlash and a hit to our on-field credibility.

Wow. You must have a very precarious grip on your onfield credibility. What is your opinion, then, of replay and the effect on your ego, er, credibility?