Hmmm..........what do you think?

[drh898]

Wow, how long must games be in Missouri. Of course, Missouri is the "show me" state.

[parepat]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Absolutely.

He is the coach. *I* am the referee. I'll listen and if there's been a mistake, we'll correct it.

If he's incorrect, he gets charged with a timeout and life goes on. But I get to decide that.

Unless, of course, you are unsure/ mistaken about a rule, in which case you are screwed as is the coach and his players. All which could be avoided if only you had access to the information.

[Jim D]

Originally Posted by parepat

Unless, of course, you are unsure/ mistaken about a rule, in which case you are screwed as is the coach and his players. All which could be avoided if only you had access to the information.

All of which could be avoided if you studied the rules. In the middle of a game is a poor time to be learning the rules.

[Ed Hickland]

Originally Posted by johnSandlin

This happened this past Friday back in my home area of Michigan.

Here is the situation:

Team A (home team) is trailing 25-22 with :57.1 to go in regulation. Team A does a pooch on side kick (according to the newspaper article). Team A recovers the ball.

However, Team B (visiting team and winning at the time) is given possession of the ball because the kick did not hit the ground.

Team A is miffed to say the least. According to the paper, the head referee (assuming the white hat) goes and gets his rulebook, brings out to the field, shows and explains the rule to Team A's coach.

Team A ends up losing 25-22.

Has anyone ever left the field or stopped the game for the purpose of getting the rulebook out? (talking high school, not weekend tournaments like baseball where rules are altered) t

I thought the only way you could conclusively apply 3-5-2c is with a rule book. Without a rule book it becomes coach versus referee, with the book all doubt is removed.

My crew toolbag has a rule and case book and the athletic association has in their handbook that we MUST have them available for consultation. Have only used it once and not for good reason.

As for the rule on kickoffs, 6-1-5 requires the kick to go 10 yards and it must touch the ground. Kickers are mastering the art of kicking downward so the ball touches the ground and then goes the requisite 10 yards as the two requirements can be in either order.

[CO ump]

Originally Posted by parepat

Unless, of course, you are unsure/ mistaken about a rule, in which case you are screwed as is the coach and his players. All which could be avoided if only you had access to the information.

Ok here's the scenario:

QB A1 runs 10 yds beyond the LOS then throws illegal forward pass.
Basic spot is from end of run. But wait! Defensive coach says the penalty should be marked from LOS. You inform him that the basic spot on running plays is from end of run. he insists this is a loose ball play and basic spot is LOS.
Are you going to pull out the rulebook, waste 5 minutes and set a dangerous precedent just to prove you're right? Or are you going to politely tell coach to look it up on his own time?

Unless you use the book to justify your interp every time the coach questions you I can't see ever using the book because here's the problem, if you know you're right you're not going to pull out the book to prove it(at least I hope you don't) If you're mistaken, you don't know you're mistaken, you think you're right so you're not pullin the book out to prove it. If you're not sure you consult with your crew and if you all come up with the same mistake you'll have the confidence of your crew behind you and you won't pull the book out to prove it. If the crew is split on the rules app question I'm sure one of you will have the confidence to say I know the rule and this is it. So again no rule book needed to prove it.

If you have an entire crew weak on rules and weak on selling ability then perhaps the book would be helpful

[Ed Hickland]

Originally Posted by CO ump

If you have an entire crew weak on rules and weak on selling ability then perhaps the book would be helpful

While I carry the books per regulation, it is my belief complex rules often require multiple rule citations something best done in a clinic.

Here are two situations that necessiated the rule book:

A on a field goal attempt. B11 standing inbounds jumps and tips the ball such that it goes over the goal post. Official disallowed the field goal incorrectly. Would the book have helped?

Fourth and 15 for A from B's 40. A32 runs to B's 30. B64 dives and late hits A32. Officials place the ball on B's 15 first and ten for A. A scores and the win is enough to put them in the playoffs, without the win no playoffs. Would and should the book have been helpful?

We are human in spite of the funny looking shirt.

[Mike L]

Chances of me or any crewmate having a rule book on or near the field....absolutely zero. You want to destroy any resemblance of professionalism, stand there looking thru a rule book during a game. I couldn't care less how Ohio does it because, thankfully, I don't deal with Ohio rules. That policy is just asking for trouble despite misplaced good intentions. Study the friggin rules and it becomes moot!!
Number of times I've been questioned about what the coach thinks is a rule question but is really a judgement question...tons. Number of times it actually was a rule question...once and for the same thing as the original post. Amazing when I told the coach the exact conditions that had to be met in order for him to keep the ball, that was that.

[golfnref]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I'm pretty sure you're incorrect. It doesn't have to be in that order - it can hit the ground immediately, or at 5, or 8 yards, and then be recovered in the air after 10 yards. It doesn't necessarily have to touch ground AFTER it goes 10.

My bad! You are absolutely right. I was trying to make a point that both hit the ground and go 10 yards had to occur. I should have said " in either order".

[txrefcshou]

All of this disscusion is about NF rules correct? Not NCAA.

[RMR]

Originally Posted by Sonofanump

So if the coach uses a time out to discuss a rule interp, your linesman does not bring the rule book on the field?

We had a coach not believe us on 7.1.7.b last Friday night, showed him at half, but what if he request it during the game using a TO?

Just ask him to show it to you in his copy. End of discussion.

[bigjohn]

In Ohio the linesman is REQUIRED to bring the rule and case books onto the field. The chain crew holds onto it.

Pretty sure that one gets ignored on a regular basis. I asked a linesman to check his casebook on the rule about Low blocks in shotgun formation. He didn't have one, even to look at in the locker room at halftime.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

In Ohio the linesman is REQUIRED to bring the rule and case books onto the field. The chain crew holds onto it.

Pretty sure that one gets ignored on a regular basis. I asked a linesman to check his casebook on the rule about Low blocks in shotgun formation. He didn't have one, even to look at in the locker room at halftime.

I think this state should rename themselves Oiho - because they're thinking backwards!

Leave the damn book in the locker room!

Seriously - I wonder if something happened that the SA figured the way to show progress was to bring the book to the sideline. Perhaps a ruling was made in a state final where the crew didn't know the correct ruling.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Ed Hickland

While I carry the books per regulation, it is my belief complex rules often require multiple rule citations something best done in a clinic.

Here are two situations that necessiated the rule book:

A on a field goal attempt. B11 standing inbounds jumps and tips the ball such that it goes over the goal post. Official disallowed the field goal incorrectly. Would the book have helped?

If it's a well-written rule book, such as Fed's ca. 1980, yes. If it's a badly written one such as NFL's or CFL's from around that time, no!

Obviously this isn't anything an official can do anything about. Rather, it's a criterion for judging how well a rule book is written. If the book is written well, you should be able to look anything up and get a definitive answer quickly. If it's not, you get into situations where you have to look thru the whole book, end to end, to see if a particular provision out-specifies a general one your eyes might've hit elsewhere.

In practice, what officials do with all but the best written rule books is to rearrange them in their heads. Even if the rule book is among the best written, I'm not saying you should actually refer to it during administration of a game, but that's the ideal that the writers of the rules should aim for.

Robert

[parepat]

hypothetical situation:

You walk onto a plane and you see the pilot reading "Flying 747's for Dummies"
You might think "this guy doesn't know what he's doing".

Three hours later the right engine goes out. The pilot pulls out the manual and restarts the engine. You think "thank god he had the manual".

My point is I have never met another official who has not misapplied a rule. If you haven't you are either a) a liar or b) a sure shot for the NFL.

As previously stated the rule book is not for the coach it is for the official's reference. You don't need to pull it out to prove anything. The only time an official would need to bring it out is if he was unsure about a rule. To be honest, I don't think that the coach's know that we have it.

To those of you that say "know the rules". No joke. If you never need it what have you lost. If you do need it, it's there.

To those with the "because I said so " attitude, you are part of the reason coaches hate and do not respect us.

[parepat]

Originally Posted by CO ump

Ok here's the scenario:

QB A1 runs 10 yds beyond the LOS then throws illegal forward pass.
Basic spot is from end of run. But wait! Defensive coach says the penalty should be marked from LOS. You inform him that the basic spot on running plays is from end of run. he insists this is a loose ball play and basic spot is LOS.
Are you going to pull out the rulebook, waste 5 minutes and set a dangerous precedent just to prove you're right? Or are you going to politely tell coach to look it up on his own time?

I would not pull out the rule book unless I was unclear on the rule.

Unless you use the book to justify your interp every time the coach questions you I can't see ever using the book because here's the problem, if you know you're right you're not going to pull out the book to prove it(at least I hope you don't) If you're mistaken, you don't know you're mistaken, you think you're right so you're not pullin the book out to prove it. If you're not sure you consult with your crew and if you all come up with the same mistake you'll have the confidence of your crew behind you and you won't pull the book out to prove it. If the crew is split on the rules app question I'm sure one of you will have the confidence to say I know the rule and this is it. So again no rule book needed to prove it.

If you have an entire crew weak on rules and weak on selling ability then perhaps the book would be helpful

This might be the dumbest thing I've ever heard. If I am are not sure I can pull out the rule book. You can not. Enough said .