Clarify the Spot of Enforcement

[golfdesigner]

Good morning all,
Watched this one last night with a Varsity crew.
NFHS Rules.
LOS is A 30-yd line A 2nd down 7 to go;
A10 takes snap and rolls out;
A79 is flagged for hold behind LOS, about 4-yds behind LOS during A10's roll out;
A10 throws legal forward pass to A88 (complete);
A88 runs for about 10-yds after catching pass to B 30-yd line;

Crew marched off 10-yd penalty from PS and replayed the down 2nd and 17-yds to go.

We discussed basic spot, since the roll out preceeded the pass, the run was part of a loose ball play, the basic spot would be the previous spot.

The foul would not be assessed from the spot of the foul to make it 2nd and 21-yds to go.

Anybody want to weigh in on this one?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by golfdesigner

Good morning all,
Watched this one last night with a Varsity crew.
NFHS Rules.
LOS is A 30-yd line A 2nd down 7 to go;
A10 takes snap and rolls out;
A79 is flagged for hold behind LOS, about 4-yds behind LOS during A10's roll out;
A10 throws legal forward pass to A88 (complete);
A88 runs for about 10-yds after catching pass to B 30-yd line;

Crew marched off 10-yd penalty from PS and replayed the down 2nd and 17-yds to go.

We discussed basic spot, since the roll out preceeded the pass, the run was part of a loose ball play, the basic spot would be the previous spot.

The foul would not be assessed from the spot of the foul to make it 2nd and 21-yds to go.

Anybody want to weigh in on this one?

All but one principle. This is the "one." The basic spot is the previous spot, but the penalty is enforced from the spot of the foul if behind the basic spot in a running or loose ball play. Read up on the all-but-one in rule 10.

[andy1033]

Yes, you are right all but one and this is it.

[Ed Hickland]

Originally Posted by golfdesigner

Good morning all,
Watched this one last night with a Varsity crew.
NFHS Rules.
LOS is A 30-yd line A 2nd down 7 to go;
A10 takes snap and rolls out;
A79 is flagged for hold behind LOS, about 4-yds behind LOS during A10's roll out;
A10 throws legal forward pass to A88 (complete);
A88 runs for about 10-yds after catching pass to B 30-yd line;

Crew marched off 10-yd penalty from PS and replayed the down 2nd and 17-yds to go.

We discussed basic spot, since the roll out preceeded the pass, the run was part of a loose ball play, the basic spot would be the previous spot.

The foul would not be assessed from the spot of the foul to make it 2nd and 21-yds to go.

Anybody want to weigh in on this one?

You are saying the hold was at about A's 26?

This is the one in the all-but-one. The basic spot is the 30. The spot of the foul is the 26. Ten yards back to the 16 and replay the down. Second and 21.

Any foul by the team in possession behind the basic spot is enforced from the spot of the foul, in this case A's 26.

[golfdesigner]

My take on this, and we thought they kicked it at the time, and now I'm sure they did.
Penalty should have been enforced from spot of the foul. Under all-but-one principle. The basic spot was preceding spot because the run prior to the pass was part of the loose ball play, however, since the foul was behind the basic spot, enforce from the spot of the foul. Should have been 2nd and 21 from the 16.
Thanks guys, comments much appreciated.

[JugglingReferee]

Canadian Points of Enforcement:

• Scrimmage Plays
  • Foul Before First Down Earned: PE = Previous Line of Scrimmage
  • Foul After First Down Earned: PE = Point Ball Held
• Kicking Plays
  • Foul Before Ball in Air: PE = Previous Line of Scrimmage
  • Foul While Ball in Air: PE = Point of Possession
  • Fould After Ball in Possession: PE = Point Ball Held
• Dead Ball Foul
  • Point Ball Dead

This is a very basic summary. There are some small twists. UR, for examples, can be applied anywhere (eg: PLS, PP, or PBD) at the option of non-offending team.

[Robert Goodman]

[QUOTE=JugglingReferee]Canadian Points of Enforcement:
Scrimmage Plays

• Foul Before First Down Earned: PE = Previous Line of Scrimmage
• Foul After First Down Earned: PE = Point Ball Held

So the whole "fouls and legal gains" bit has now been boiled down to this? I see this as "many major swindles" to offense and defense!

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

So the whole "fouls and legal gains" bit has now been boiled down to this? I see this as "many major swindles" to offense and defense!

Please elaborate?

[Robert Goodman]

There used to be a section of the Football Canada & CFL rule books titled "Fouls and Legal Gains" setting out the enforcement points (spots) for live ball fouls. (In other words, showing that advances of the ball made legally before a foul could be "kept" before enforcement.) They used the "3 and 1" or "all but one" principle just like USAn rules to enforce from PBD (you didn't have EOR) or POF; PBH was looking rather moribund as an enforcement spot. Now, going by what you laid out, it looks like a big gain (or loss) that doesn't result in a 1st down can be completely wiped out by a subsequent foul by either team if the penalty is accepted.

Robert

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

There used to be a section of the Football Canada & CFL rule books titled "Fouls and Legal Gains" setting out the enforcement points (spots) for live ball fouls. (In other words, showing that advances of the ball made legally before a foul could be "kept" before enforcement.) They used the "3 and 1" or "all but one" principle just like USAn rules to enforce from PBD (you didn't have EOR) or POF; PBH was looking rather moribund as an enforcement spot. Now, going by what you laid out, it looks like a big gain (or loss) that doesn't result in a 1st down can be completely wiped out by a subsequent foul by either team if the penalty is accepted.

Robert

There still is a section that deals with Fouls and Legal Gains. How could there not be a section that deals with this?

Personally, I think all fouls should be applied from Point Ball Held. If RB gains 9 yards on 1D and then there is a hold flagged, then yes, the PE is the LS.

I think PBH is the best because of the simplicity for all to understand:

• Whatever you gain legally you keep
• Whatever you gain illegally is open to acceptance/declination of the penalty by non-offending team
• Whenever a foul happens, find where the ball was. This is the spot you report to the R.

Penalty application in Canada is very easy to do. From what I read about the ABO, we have it easy.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Personally, I think all fouls should be applied from Point Ball Held. If RB gains 9 yards on 1D and then there is a hold flagged, then yes, the PE is the LS.

I think PBH is the best because of the simplicity for all to understand:

• Whatever you gain legally you keep
• Whatever you gain illegally is open to acceptance/declination of the penalty by non-offending team
• Whenever a foul happens, find where the ball was. This is the spot you report to the R.

Penalty application in Canada is very easy to do. From what I read about the ABO, we have it easy.

PBH is a philosophically good enforcement spot for many situations, but it does have the disadvantage that an official has to see it at the same time as the infraction occurs, which may be some distance away and not seen by the same official. (I thought a penalty horn would be good for that, but there'd still be time lags.)

PBH would be a gyp enforcement spot for most cases of illegal contact against receivers downfield, and it would be dumb in many other cases of contact fouls by the defense during a run, and it would be silly for non-contact and roughness calls of many types not affecting play directly. However, I do wish it were instituted in USAn football for some situations.

3-and-1 (all but one) is a better approximation of justice than PBH would be in some cases of common running play, not all. 3-and-1 has the advantage that the covering official needs to see either the ball (for where it becomes dead) or the foul, but not both simultaneously.

Robert