The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Football
Register FAQ Community Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sat Sep 29, 2007, 09:02am
I Bleed Crimson
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 477
Two Scenarios from Last Night

In our game last night, we had two situations of which I cannot find any rule support. While discussing it in the post-game, the rest of the crew was certain they had it right, but I'm still not so sure.

1. Late in the second quarter, A is out of timeouts. They are taking quite some time and as they approach the line, the BJ raises his hand to indicate 5 seconds left on the play clock. The QB calls timeout. Our WH stops the clock and signals A's timeout. The rest of us are saying "no timeouts for A." Once the WH looks at his card, he realizes it, then throws a flag and marches off 5 for DOG.

I argued that there is no DOG for this, just that we should not grant the request. Our WH said that is normally true, but if it is granted, and it is discovered that there are no remaining TO's, then a DOG is charged. I said this applied only if the coach challenged a ruling on the field and it failed. I was overruled by the rest of the crew and let the issue drop.

2. Our WH nailed A 3 times for IS for breaking the huddle with 12. I reminded him that it is not the huddle that matters, but that the replaced player leave immediately. On all 3 occasions, as the 12th A player entered the huddle, the huddle broke, and the replaced player left the field immediately. The coach (on my sideline) never objected.

In the end, neither mattered, as it was a blowout. However, I felt it was setting a bad precedent, especially since this team is 5-0, ranked #2 in the state, and is likely to make it to the playoffs. And in the playoffs, the officials are more likely to get things right, and they may see things not called that were called during the season.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Sat Sep 29, 2007, 08:31pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,305
NCAA or Fed?\

If NCAA -
1 - No penalty for crew screwup.

2 - The rule prohibits the team from breaking the huddle with 12. Even if the sub comes in late and the replaced player leaves immediately, which happens to be at the same time the huddle breaks, foul
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Sat Sep 29, 2007, 08:34pm
MJT MJT is offline
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Alton, Iowa
Posts: 1,796
NF

I agree with the DOG foul, and your rules support is 3-6-2-f "any other conduct which unduly prolongs the game." His calling the TO and the official granting it and stopping the clock when they were out of TO's and the time was a factor is the issue.

The "breaking the huddle with 12" issue is something you are going to have to discuss with your R so he understands the rule. I would suggest you show him "additional example #2" in The Redding Study Guide. If you don't have it, here is the play.
"Team A huddles with nine players. Three substitutes enter the huddle which almost immediately breaks with 12 players. A45 runs to his sideline and leaves the field just before the snap. RULING Legal. It is not a foul to break a huddle with 12 players unless deception is involved or a replaced player fails to leave immediately.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Sat Sep 29, 2007, 10:25pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Randolph, NJ
Posts: 1,936
Send a message via Yahoo to waltjp
I had a very heated exchange with the R on my crew following a playoff game last year in which he penalized A for breaking the huddle with 12. I've tried to talk some sense into him but he refuses to even consider that this is not a penalty. In fact, I think he took some special glee in calling this during our first game this season.
__________________
I got a fever! And the only prescription.. is more cowbell!
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Sat Sep 29, 2007, 10:52pm
MJT MJT is offline
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Alton, Iowa
Posts: 1,796
Quote:
Originally Posted by waltjp
I had a very heated exchange with the R on my crew following a playoff game last year in which he penalized A for breaking the huddle with 12. I've tried to talk some sense into him but he refuses to even consider that this is not a penalty. In fact, I think he took some special glee in calling this during our first game this season.
Walt, show him what I quoted in Reddings above. Better yet, show it to him if you or he has the book. It is additional example #2 at the end of the "Chapter 10 - Substitution and Participation" in The Redding Study Guide. Hard to argue that point.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Sun Sep 30, 2007, 06:15am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,305
Since the Fed ruling on the "huddle break" appears to be different than the NCAA, let me ask this...if they do break with 12 as in this scenario, does the U prevent a snap until Team B can see who is actually leaving the field and then send in any sub they want?
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Sun Sep 30, 2007, 07:12am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 1,130
I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong but the spirit and intent of the rule is to keep A from deceiving B by having more than 11 "players" on the field. If a "substitute" comes on the field and tells a "player" he is being substituted just as the team breaks the huddle there is no deception. The "substitute" becomes a "player" and the "player" becomes a "replaced player."

I seem to recall NCAA stating a time interval of something like three seconds for the exchange.

Plus, it is not just breaking the huddle, it is 12 "players" on the field. If there are 11 players in the huddle and a "substitute" comes on the field and stays in the huddle without a "player" leaving the foul can be flagged when it is apparent no one is leaving the huddle.

Most of all we should use common sense in calling this foul -- is deception involved. How many times have you seen undisciplined teams foul up substitutions?
__________________
Ed Hickland, MBA, CCP
[email protected]
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Sun Sep 30, 2007, 05:19pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Randolph, NJ
Posts: 1,936
Send a message via Yahoo to waltjp
Quote:
Originally Posted by TXMike
Since the Fed ruling on the "huddle break" appears to be different than the NCAA, let me ask this...if they do break with 12 as in this scenario, does the U prevent a snap until Team B can see who is actually leaving the field and then send in any sub they want?
No, we don't delay the snap. Now the story may be different if we though A was attempting to deceive B by sending in late subs.
__________________
I got a fever! And the only prescription.. is more cowbell!
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Sun Sep 30, 2007, 05:17pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Randolph, NJ
Posts: 1,936
Send a message via Yahoo to waltjp
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJT
Walt, show him what I quoted in Reddings above. Better yet, show it to him if you or he has the book. It is additional example #2 at the end of the "Chapter 10 - Substitution and Participation" in The Redding Study Guide. Hard to argue that point.
Been there...done that. He's unwilling to accept any interp that isn't his own. It's not going to be my problem next year.
__________________
I got a fever! And the only prescription.. is more cowbell!
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Sun Sep 30, 2007, 10:54am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suudy
1. Late in the second quarter, A is out of timeouts. They are taking quite some time and as they approach the line, the BJ raises his hand to indicate 5 seconds left on the play clock. The QB calls timeout. Our WH stops the clock and signals A's timeout. The rest of us are saying "no timeouts for A." Once the WH looks at his card, he realizes it, then throws a flag and marches off 5 for DOG.
The WH errored when he blew his whistle & granted a TO. If no TO's are available, the request is to be ignored. Since the crew errored in stopping the 25 second clock for the TO, they bailed out A. IMHO, officiating mistake, A get a new 25 seconds, start a new RFP & move on.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 04, 2007, 08:04am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 147
...on the issue of 12 men breaking the huddle, I've had this fight with several other officials...some of which I would say are excellent officials. Some just can't accept the discression the white hat is given by the federation over the NCAA. In fact I have simply given up trying to educate others. When I wear the white hat, I call it the right way; when I'm not, I let it go and don't say a word.

My issues is and always has been that the federation allows the referee the discression to decide when the replaced player has stayed on the field too long. There is the discression to allow an inexperienced player to linger a little longer if he doesn't realize that he should have already left the field. The NCAA statute gives a very solid, concret measure for illegal substitution. While I agree that breaking the huddle with 12 players should alert the referee to pay attendtion that no advantage is being gained , it in NOT an automatic foul as in NCAA.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
R1 stays at first ... two scenarios bobbrix Softball 8 Mon May 15, 2006 01:51pm
Two scenarios jking_94577 Basketball 8 Sat Mar 12, 2005 07:51am
more FT Scenarios? Troward Basketball 3 Tue Nov 05, 2002 07:18pm
Two scenarios Danvrapp Basketball 41 Tue Aug 07, 2001 08:53pm
Answer to "Two scenarios" Danvrapp Basketball 1 Fri Aug 03, 2001 08:13am


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:44am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1