What Foul Is This?

[waltjp]

No, it's a safety either way. An accepted penalty will result in enforcement from A's end zone, which is a safety. If the penalty is declined the ball will be marked from the end of the run, which is in the end zone. Again, a safety.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by waltjp

No, it's a safety either way. An accepted penalty will result in enforcement from A's end zone, which is a safety. If the penalty is declined the ball will be marked from the end of the run, which is in the end zone. Again, a safety.

Why would it be marked from the end of the run if the intentional grounding is declined? Why would it not be simply an incomplete forward pass if the penalty was declined?

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Why would it be marked from the end of the run if the intentional grounding is declined? Why would it not be simply an incomplete forward pass if the penalty was declined?

Whether the penalty is accepted or not the end of the run is the point from where the illegal pass was thrown. This is the spot of enforcement and, if the penalty is declined, the spot where the ball will next be put in play.

Fed 10-5-4 If the offensive team throws an illegal forward pass from its end zone or commits any other foul for which the penalty is accepted and measurement is from on or behind its goal line, it is a safety.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by waltjp

Whether the penalty is accepted or not the end of the run is the point from where the illegal pass was thrown. This is the spot of enforcement and, if the penalty is declined, the spot where the ball will next be put in play.

Fed 10-5-4 If the offensive team throws an illegal forward pass from its end zone or commits any other foul for which the penalty is accepted and measurement is from on or behind its goal line, it is a safety.

Another small bit of Fed differences for me to learn. Let me ask a corollary then, assuming this ruling (declining a foul for illegal pass means the play is over at the spot of the illegal pass) is correct...

A18 is 2 yards (or 50 yards) past the line of scrimmage when he throws the ball forward - and the ball is intercepted by the defense. Sounds like the defense can't keep the ball by declining the penalty. (Or suppose that the illegal pass in the initial post had been caught by a defender or bounced up off an interior offensive lineman and was then caught --- defense can't decling the penalty and keep the ball?) Or are there exceptions for this case?

[waltjp]

In the example of A throwing an illegal pass in advance of the LOS, B can decline the penalty and take the result of the play, in this case the interception; or they can enforce the foul from where the pass was thrown. This is a 5-yard penalty from the end of the run and loss of down.

[Suudy]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Another small bit of Fed differences for me to learn. Let me ask a corollary then, assuming this ruling (declining a foul for illegal pass means the play is over at the spot of the illegal pass) is correct...

I think the distiction is that the play is not over at the spot of the illegal forward pass. That is true on an incomplete illegal forward pass (which is the original post). If the pass is complete, then the end of the play is the end of the run.

[raiderfan]

Suudy & Waltjb bring to mind an interesting play. 2nd and 10 at the 50. 4 seconds remain in the game. B team is leading by 5. A1 bootlegs around the left side and runs to the 10 YL. He is surrounded by B players and throws the ball into the end zone. The ball is caught by A2 with no time on the clock

Illegal forward pass at the 10 YL . If B declines the penalty and accepts the result of the play, A team scores 6 points and wins the game. If B accepts the penalty, A gets an untimed down at the 15 .

[Welpe]

Wouldn't the game be over considering that the penalty for an illegal forward pass includes a loss of down?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by raiderfan

Suudy & Waltjb bring to mind an interesting play. 2nd and 10 at the 50. 4 seconds remain in the game. B team is leading by 5. A1 bootlegs around the left side and runs to the 10 YL. He is surrounded by B players and throws the ball into the end zone. The ball is caught by A2 with no time on the clock

Illegal forward pass at the 10 YL . If B declines the penalty and accepts the result of the play, A team scores 6 points and wins the game. If B accepts the penalty, A gets an untimed down at the 15 .

CANADIAN RULING:

We don't have this hole in our rules. A pass like this is called an offside pass (subject to penalty). Since it is not defined as a foul, there is no "one more play" situation. Offside passes (subject to penalty) are penalized, when accepted, as the ball being dead at the point of origin of offside pass.

Edit: just read the responses mentioning the loss of down.... good to see there is no hole in teh US rules.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by raiderfan

Suudy & Waltjb bring to mind an interesting play. 2nd and 10 at the 50. 4 seconds remain in the game. B team is leading by 5. A1 bootlegs around the left side and runs to the 10 YL. He is surrounded by B players and throws the ball into the end zone. The ball is caught by A2 with no time on the clock

Illegal forward pass at the 10 YL . If B declines the penalty and accepts the result of the play, A team scores 6 points and wins the game. If B accepts the penalty, A gets an untimed down at the 15 .

Yeah, that was an infamous one until a couple years ago or so when Fed realized the anomaly and changed it so an accepted loss of down penalty doesn't extend a period.

Robert

[Suudy]

Originally Posted by raiderfan

Suudy & Waltjb bring to mind an interesting play. 2nd and 10 at the 50. 4 seconds remain in the game. B team is leading by 5. A1 bootlegs around the left side and runs to the 10 YL. He is surrounded by B players and throws the ball into the end zone. The ball is caught by A2 with no time on the clock

Illegal forward pass at the 10 YL . If B declines the penalty and accepts the result of the play, A team scores 6 points and wins the game. If B accepts the penalty, A gets an untimed down at the 15 .

And a couple of years ago we considered the following situation.

A trails by 2 with 0:10 left in the 4th quarter. 1st and 10 on A's 45. A sets-up in shotgun and sends 4 receivers on streaks (a-la the Hail Mary). The 5th receiver, A2, bubbles underneath to about B's 30. QB A1 throws to A2. As B comes up for the tackle, A2 throws an IFP at B's 25 to A3, now behind the B defenders, who runs in for the TD. Time expires on the play.

If B declines, A wins the game on the TD. If B accepts, we have 1st and 10 on B's 30 and an untimed down. A lines-up and kicks a field goal to win.

Of course, we'd have fans and coaches screaming and yelling that the game can't end on a defensive penalty, not knowing the rules.

Now, with the provision to not extend a period on an accepted penalty that incudes a loss of right to replay the down, this cannot occur.

But the question is: What is the mechanic to signal this?

Certainly you indicate the penalty (IFP), point to A. Then what? Just hold the ball over your head to indicate the game is over?

[RazorRef]

Originally Posted by waltjp

No, it's a safety either way. An accepted penalty will result in enforcement from A's end zone, which is a safety. If the penalty is declined the ball will be marked from the end of the run, which is in the end zone. Again, a safety.

I don't agree with this. It was an incomplete foward pass. If it was 4th down, it's now B's ball at the previous spot. That is if they don't accept the Safety from the penalty.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by RazorRef

I don't agree with this. It was an incomplete foward pass. If it was 4th down, it's now B's ball at the previous spot. That is if they don't accept the Safety from the penalty.

You're not going back to the previous spot on this play. This does not meet the definition of a loose-ball play. Fed 10-3-1 b. A loose-ball play is action during a legal forward pass.

Table 7-5 identifies the spot of enforcement as the end of the run, which is in the end zone. Safety. Also reference rule 10-5-4.

[RazorRef]

I apologize guys...I had no idea this was the rule in HS. I would've been screwed had I been on the field and seen this. It is totally different in NCAA. If any college guys want to know the rule reference, it is 7-3-7-c Exception. Also AR 7-3-7-II. Thank you for clearing that up.

As a side note, I think this rule should be changed. It kind of screws the defense since they don't get the option of trying for a touchdown from a short distance. If B were down by 5, let's say, and there was less than a minute to go in the 4th, as a coach I would probably rather get the ball with the chance of scoring 7 than getting 2 and the ball.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by RazorRef

As a side note, I think this rule should be changed. It kind of screws the defense since they don't get the option of trying for a touchdown from a short distance. If B were down by 5, let's say, and there was less than a minute to go in the 4th, as a coach I would probably rather get the ball with the chance of scoring 7 than getting 2 and the ball.

The screw I think should be changed is the ability of the team with the ball to give up a safety on last down, which is really what the situation described is about. If that's not changed (to make it a TD instead of a safety), then, what's the big deal about this play situation in NCAA? Once the QB faded into the end zone, he could've kneeled to concede a safety, so what's the big deal about allowing him to concede a safety via intentional grounding?

Robert