Kill the Punter

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

The way I'm reading this, he's not blind, but looking up at his handiwork, and not participating in the play. There was a POE in both FED and NCAA in the past 2-3 years that this player should not be forcibly blocked until he starts participating in the play.

But the situation was:

After he punts his leg returns to the ground and takes a couple steps downfield

He's covering the kick. Why should team R have to wait for some later time when he's a more difficult target to block him?

IMO if the player wants to be protected from contact in such a situation, he should have to sit or kneel.

Robert

[JRutledge]

OK Robert, what if the ball is not being returned at all and the ball is being downed by kicking team. Is it OK to just hit anyone anywhere on the field?

As people have said, it really depends on how the play is developing.

Peace

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

OK Robert, what if the ball is not being returned at all and the ball is being downed by kicking team. Is it OK to just hit anyone anywhere on the field?

If they appear to be trying to get towards the play, sure. They don't know "the ball is being downed".

Perhaps there should be some way to signal to everyone on the field that a fair catch has been signaled. Other than that, I don't see how you can say anyone is "out of play" in an open field situation like a kick from scrimmage. If they want to be protected, they should sit or kneel; otherwise, what are they doing on the field?

Robert

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

If they appear to be trying to get towards the play, sure. They don't know "the ball is being downed".

Perhaps there should be some way to signal to everyone on the field that a fair catch has been signaled. Other than that, I don't see how you can say anyone is "out of play" in an open field situation like a kick from scrimmage. If they want to be protected, they should sit or kneel; otherwise, what are they doing on the field?

Robert

If a player is not running towards a play, anyone better be careful if they choose to take out that player. And if a player is clearly down, because they think the play is not over that does not give them the right to level an either. Now you can disagree, but a punter that is 40 yards away from a play and has not even attempted to go towards that play, is not just fair game. This is where experience comes into play and I think I can tell the difference between a cheap shot and someone actively trying to get involved in the play.

Peace

[PaulJak]

In terms of if you've got a foul, HTBT.

There are a couple of enforcements listed that I've got an issue with or I'm not understanding.

JRutledge said: If you have a foul then it is a personal foul and it would be 15 yards from the end of the run or a spot foul behind the end of the run (which ever hurts the most).

and, Kirby said: If after the end of the kick, we will have 15 yards from spot of the foul or end of the run depending if run ends beyond or behind spot of foul.

Both of these seem to talk about enforecement after the end of the run, which shouldn't matter in this case (I'm assuming this action happens before the change of possession.). This is not a PSK foul. The four requirements for PSK are:

• R fouls on their side of the expanded neutral zone before the end of the kick (can be before or during the kick).
• K makes a legal scrimmage kick that crosses the neutral zone.
• The kick ends beyond the neutral zone (on R's side).
• R is in team possession at the end of the down.

In this instance if you've judged that R fouled, the foul occured on K's side of the NZ so I've simply got a foul on R during a loose ball play. Basic spot is the previous LOS with a foul by B behind that spot. The enforcement spot is the previous LOS - 15 yards (maybe a first down but not automatic, otherwise replay 4th down).

Paul

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by PaulJak

Both of these seem to talk about enforecement after the end of the run, which shouldn't matter in this case (I'm assuming this action happens before the change of possession.). This is not a PSK foul.
Paul

I did not say this was a PSK foul. A PSK foul would involve enforcement potentially of the end of the kick. I did not even suggest that.

If the ball is being returned and you have a personal foul, you enforce at the spot of the foul or the end of the run which ever hurts the team worse. More than likely this would be an end of the run enforcement, but if the run happen past the spot of the foul, you go back to the spot foul. No different if you did not have a kick and you have a touchdown run (from a scrimmage play) and behind the play and during the run you have a similar personal foul called, this is a spot foul if the ball is still live. You bring the ball back to the spot and enforce 15 yards from there. I do not even know where you got PSK out of my post. PSK only applies to a foul by R beyond the expanded neutral zone which this play (based on what I have read) was not the case.

Peace

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by PaulJak

In terms of if you've got a foul, HTBT.

There are a couple of enforcements listed that I've got an issue with or I'm not understanding.

JRutledge said: If you have a foul then it is a personal foul and it would be 15 yards from the end of the run or a spot foul behind the end of the run (which ever hurts the most).

and, Kirby said: If after the end of the kick, we will have 15 yards from spot of the foul or end of the run depending if run ends beyond or behind spot of foul.

Both of these seem to talk about enforecement after the end of the run, which shouldn't matter in this case (I'm assuming this action happens before the change of possession.). This is not a PSK foul. The four requirements for PSK are:

• R fouls on their side of the expanded neutral zone before the end of the kick (can be before or during the kick).
• K makes a legal scrimmage kick that crosses the neutral zone.
• The kick ends beyond the neutral zone (on R's side).
• R is in team possession at the end of the down.

In this instance if you've judged that R fouled, the foul occured on K's side of the NZ so I've simply got a foul on R during a loose ball play. Basic spot is the previous LOS with a foul by B behind that spot. The enforcement spot is the previous LOS - 15 yards (maybe a first down but not automatic, otherwise replay 4th down).

Paul

RTK, yes. PF - no. PF is a live ball foul enforced as a dead ball foul.

[PaulJak]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

RTK, yes. PF - no. PF is a live ball foul enforced as a dead ball foul.

Help me with the live ball enforced as a dead ball?

If a kid blows up another kid 30 yards behind a live ball, the enforcement spot is the spot of the foul. Its a live ball foul, why would you treat it as a dead ball foul? If you've got a USC during a live ball I can understand the treating it as a dead ball thing, but not a live ball PF.

Paul

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by PaulJak

Help me with the live ball enforced as a dead ball?

If a kid blows up another kid 30 yards behind a live ball, the enforcement spot is the spot of the foul. Its a live ball foul, why would you treat it as a dead ball foul? If you've got a USC during a live ball I can understand the treating it as a dead ball thing, but not a live ball PF.

Paul

Sorry, my ruleset is showing. NCAA Rules (the OP didn't say).

[PaulJak]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Sorry, my ruleset is showing. NCAA Rules (the OP didn't say).

Thanks, my head is always thinking Fed first. Good to know there is a difference here.

I've always disliked the fact that something that far away can ruin a great long gain. Its a safety thing, so you've got to get it, but to bring it all the way back or even cancel a score is a severe enforcement.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by PaulJak

Thanks, my head is always thinking Fed first. Good to know there is a difference here.

I've always disliked the fact that something that far away can ruin a great long gain. Its a safety thing, so you've got to get it, but to bring it all the way back or even cancel a score is a severe enforcement.

This is one of the Fed rules that bug me the most. I get the idea that if you have severe enforcement, hopefully that will eliminate the action. But consider these two (and correct me if my understanding of the FED enforcement on these is incorrect).

Team A on it's 2 yard line, breaks one loose and is around the 50. Team B lineman sees this and punches a Team A player. The runner is tackled at the 10.

Situation 1) Nothing else happens - you have a live ball PF on B, and no score on the play. So B gets away with his actions (other than the ejection).

Situation 2) Team A lineman retaliates, punching Team B. You have offsetting live ball fouls, the play comes back to the 2.

Both of these seem problematical to me. Change both punches to just cheap shots, and you don't even get an ejection - and B "gets away" with it.

[Kirby]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

RTK, yes. PF - no. PF is a live ball foul enforced as a dead ball foul.

Which rule code?

[parepat]

In my original post I thought I made it clear that the ball was still in the air when the block occured.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by parepat

In my original post I thought I made it clear that the ball was still in the air when the block occured.

I will admit that it was unclear to me. You did say the ball was in the air, but you did not make it clear the ball was still in the air at the time of the contact. In the description I would think it would be kind of hard to accomplish all of this with the ball still in the air. That being said, you clarified what you meant, but it was confusing.

Peace