Kill the Punter

[JRutledge]

OK Robert, what if the ball is not being returned at all and the ball is being downed by kicking team. Is it OK to just hit anyone anywhere on the field?

As people have said, it really depends on how the play is developing.

Peace

[PaulJak]

In terms of if you've got a foul, HTBT.

There are a couple of enforcements listed that I've got an issue with or I'm not understanding.

JRutledge said: If you have a foul then it is a personal foul and it would be 15 yards from the end of the run or a spot foul behind the end of the run (which ever hurts the most).

and, Kirby said: If after the end of the kick, we will have 15 yards from spot of the foul or end of the run depending if run ends beyond or behind spot of foul.

Both of these seem to talk about enforecement after the end of the run, which shouldn't matter in this case (I'm assuming this action happens before the change of possession.). This is not a PSK foul. The four requirements for PSK are:

• R fouls on their side of the expanded neutral zone before the end of the kick (can be before or during the kick).
• K makes a legal scrimmage kick that crosses the neutral zone.
• The kick ends beyond the neutral zone (on R's side).
• R is in team possession at the end of the down.

In this instance if you've judged that R fouled, the foul occured on K's side of the NZ so I've simply got a foul on R during a loose ball play. Basic spot is the previous LOS with a foul by B behind that spot. The enforcement spot is the previous LOS - 15 yards (maybe a first down but not automatic, otherwise replay 4th down).

Paul

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by PaulJak

Both of these seem to talk about enforecement after the end of the run, which shouldn't matter in this case (I'm assuming this action happens before the change of possession.). This is not a PSK foul.
Paul

I did not say this was a PSK foul. A PSK foul would involve enforcement potentially of the end of the kick. I did not even suggest that.

If the ball is being returned and you have a personal foul, you enforce at the spot of the foul or the end of the run which ever hurts the team worse. More than likely this would be an end of the run enforcement, but if the run happen past the spot of the foul, you go back to the spot foul. No different if you did not have a kick and you have a touchdown run (from a scrimmage play) and behind the play and during the run you have a similar personal foul called, this is a spot foul if the ball is still live. You bring the ball back to the spot and enforce 15 yards from there. I do not even know where you got PSK out of my post. PSK only applies to a foul by R beyond the expanded neutral zone which this play (based on what I have read) was not the case.

Peace

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by PaulJak

In terms of if you've got a foul, HTBT.

There are a couple of enforcements listed that I've got an issue with or I'm not understanding.

JRutledge said: If you have a foul then it is a personal foul and it would be 15 yards from the end of the run or a spot foul behind the end of the run (which ever hurts the most).

and, Kirby said: If after the end of the kick, we will have 15 yards from spot of the foul or end of the run depending if run ends beyond or behind spot of foul.

Both of these seem to talk about enforecement after the end of the run, which shouldn't matter in this case (I'm assuming this action happens before the change of possession.). This is not a PSK foul. The four requirements for PSK are:

• R fouls on their side of the expanded neutral zone before the end of the kick (can be before or during the kick).
• K makes a legal scrimmage kick that crosses the neutral zone.
• The kick ends beyond the neutral zone (on R's side).
• R is in team possession at the end of the down.

In this instance if you've judged that R fouled, the foul occured on K's side of the NZ so I've simply got a foul on R during a loose ball play. Basic spot is the previous LOS with a foul by B behind that spot. The enforcement spot is the previous LOS - 15 yards (maybe a first down but not automatic, otherwise replay 4th down).

Paul

RTK, yes. PF - no. PF is a live ball foul enforced as a dead ball foul.

[PaulJak]

JRutledge,

The original post says that

Originally Posted by parepat

...After he punts his leg returns to the ground and takes a couple steps downfield while the ball is still in the air heading to R's receiver. R1 is lined up as a defensive end. He charges to try and block the punt. Knowing that he will not get to the punt he lays off and runs behind the punter. He then circles around and blocks the punter in the front and above the waist. The punter never saw him coming and is flattened. The block occurs approx 8 yards behind the LOS at K's 20.

The original post isn't clear about the timing of the block. I interpreted the original post to imply that the contact was while the ball was still in the air, not post-possession change. Since A was still in team possession of the ball with a foul by R (not a PSK foul) I was questioning why it wouldn't be enforced as a live ball foul during a loose ball, which would give the ball back to A after enforcement.

I agree, if that contact occurs during the return its enforced with B retaining possession.

[PaulJak]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

RTK, yes. PF - no. PF is a live ball foul enforced as a dead ball foul.

Help me with the live ball enforced as a dead ball?

If a kid blows up another kid 30 yards behind a live ball, the enforcement spot is the spot of the foul. Its a live ball foul, why would you treat it as a dead ball foul? If you've got a USC during a live ball I can understand the treating it as a dead ball thing, but not a live ball PF.

Paul

[Kirby]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

RTK, yes. PF - no. PF is a live ball foul enforced as a dead ball foul.

Which rule code?

[parepat]

In my original post I thought I made it clear that the ball was still in the air when the block occured.

[parepat]

Originally Posted by Mike L

I think you have to look at the entire situation. It's not clear how far away the kick was at the time of contact. Was it short? If the ball is only 20 yards or so away, I think you could reasonably assume the punter could easily participate near term in the play and can be blocked. If he boomed it 50 yards up field, I would think he is not yet in any position to participate near term and you just might have a penalty.
Let's change the situation a little. If the QB throws a long pass (40 yds) that gets intercepted, are you going to allow a B lineman to just plaster him like this while well away from the play? The QB can easily be considered the "last line of defense". Are you going to treat a kicker different from a QB?

I absolutely am not calling a PF on the interception scenario so long as the QB is no longer acting as a passer. As far as I'm concerned he is fair game to block. Others?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by parepat

In my original post I thought I made it clear that the ball was still in the air when the block occured.

I will admit that it was unclear to me. You did say the ball was in the air, but you did not make it clear the ball was still in the air at the time of the contact. In the description I would think it would be kind of hard to accomplish all of this with the ball still in the air. That being said, you clarified what you meant, but it was confusing.

Peace

[MadCityRef]

Originally Posted by parepat

I absolutely am not calling a PF on the interception scenario so long as the QB is no longer acting as a passer. As far as I'm concerned he is fair game to block. Others?

Block, yes. Flatten? No.

Always get the safety fouls.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by PaulJak

Help me with the live ball enforced as a dead ball?

If a kid blows up another kid 30 yards behind a live ball, the enforcement spot is the spot of the foul. Its a live ball foul, why would you treat it as a dead ball foul? If you've got a USC during a live ball I can understand the treating it as a dead ball thing, but not a live ball PF.

Paul

Sorry, my ruleset is showing. NCAA Rules (the OP didn't say).

[PaulJak]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Sorry, my ruleset is showing. NCAA Rules (the OP didn't say).

Thanks, my head is always thinking Fed first. Good to know there is a difference here.

I've always disliked the fact that something that far away can ruin a great long gain. Its a safety thing, so you've got to get it, but to bring it all the way back or even cancel a score is a severe enforcement.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by PaulJak

Thanks, my head is always thinking Fed first. Good to know there is a difference here.

I've always disliked the fact that something that far away can ruin a great long gain. Its a safety thing, so you've got to get it, but to bring it all the way back or even cancel a score is a severe enforcement.

This is one of the Fed rules that bug me the most. I get the idea that if you have severe enforcement, hopefully that will eliminate the action. But consider these two (and correct me if my understanding of the FED enforcement on these is incorrect).

Team A on it's 2 yard line, breaks one loose and is around the 50. Team B lineman sees this and punches a Team A player. The runner is tackled at the 10.

Situation 1) Nothing else happens - you have a live ball PF on B, and no score on the play. So B gets away with his actions (other than the ejection).

Situation 2) Team A lineman retaliates, punching Team B. You have offsetting live ball fouls, the play comes back to the 2.

Both of these seem problematical to me. Change both punches to just cheap shots, and you don't even get an ejection - and B "gets away" with it.

[PaulJak]

mbcrowder, I couldn't agree more.

Take your 2nd scenario a little further, the retaliation is after the play is dead. So now you've got live ball on B, dead ball on A. A still gets their long gain as this would be 1st and 10 from the B 20 yard line (B's goes half the distance to the 5 and then back 15 for A's dead-ball PF). The timing of the fouls becomes critical, you've gotta know the ball status and the implications of offsetting vs. live-ball dead-ball are huge. A seems to have a huge advantage to waiting until after the play is done to retaliate for the PF.