Illegal Motion vs False Start

[Fedex]

Originally Posted by Bob M.

REPLY: For the interior lineman who is in the process of placing his hand on the ground, I agree with mbcrowder...by itself, it's illegal motion. But I also agree with ABO that the entire situation might also be an illegal shift. The reason that the lineman's movement (by itself) can't be an illegal shift is very simple--he hasn't completed the movement. A (Federation) shift occurs when an offensive player moves from one set position to another set position. The fact that he wasn't set again means it's not a shift.

I'm going to stick with 7-2-6. After a huddle or shift all 11 players of A shall come to an absolute stop and remain stationary simultaneously without movement of hands, feet, head, or body for at least one second before the snap. illegal shift (Art. 6) - (S20).

The lineman goes from huddle to hands on knees. That's a legal shift. Afterwards, he begins to shift from hands on knees to 3 point and the ball is snapped before he can get to 3 point. This violates 7-2-6 and not 7-2-7! I leave 7-2-7 to motion by backs -- forward motion or 2 in motion at once. If the lineman was trying to establish himself as a back and go in motion, as per 7-2-7, and didn't do it correctly, I'd flag him for illegal motion. However, just trying to shift to a new stance and not conforming to 7-2-6, it's illegal shift.

Scott

[bigjohn]

I disagree MJT. I see this alot on 3 and short and 4th and short and the offense is running a sneak. The QB never really is ever set!

[Bob M.]

REPLY: FedEx...let's take a look at 7-2-6. It says "After a huddle or a shift..." So we know the 'huddle' is irrelevant to this play. So if 7-2-6 is to apply, there must have been a 'shift.' The definition of a shift requires that at least one player, after taking a set position, moves to another set position. Since the lineman never reached his new set position, exactly when did this shift take place?

Like I said, there could have been an illegal shift in this play depending on when the other linemen went to their final three-point stances. But if all the other linemen were set in their stances (for at least a second) and this lummox then began to drop but was still in the process of getting to his new set position, he hasn't yet shifted so it can't be an illegal shift.

But call it whatever you care to as long as you call it

[ABO77]

Fedex, the only way you can have 7-2-6 is if two or more players are involved. (except maybe for the QB)

In other words...one player alone (shifting) cannot cause an illegal shift.

However illegal motion can only involve one player...never two or more.

Case: all 11 players have gone to there pre-snap positions. The interior lineman are in a three point stance except for the left guard who is in in a two point stance. All 11 players have paused for one second and no player has gone in motion. As the left guard is shifting to a three point stance (with out a false start) the ball is snapped.

Illegal shift? Illegal motion?

[Fedex]

Bob,

Thanks for the clarification. I read your word document on motion vs shift and it has cleared it up for me. So, if the lineman goes from 2 point to 3 point and doesn't make it to the ground when the ball is snapped, it's illegal motion. If he makes it to the ground and 1 second hasn't elapsed before the snap, it's an illegal shift, right?

Scott

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by Fedex

Bob,

Thanks for the clarification. I read your word document on motion vs shift and it has cleared it up for me. So, if the lineman goes from 2 point to 3 point and doesn't make it to the ground when the ball is snapped, it's illegal motion. If he makes it to the ground and 1 second hasn't elapsed before the snap, it's an illegal shift, right?

Scott

REPLY: Yes...that's how I read it anyway. Technically, at least.

[LeRoy]

Team A lines up with both slots 1 yard behind the tight ends. One of the slot players starts in motion after taking one step backwards A snaps the ball. Is this Illegal Motion. My first thought was that the player in motion had to be in motion for 1 second. but after looking in the rules book I believe I was wrong. But does A player have to be 5 yards deep before the snap.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by LeRoy

Team A lines up with both slots 1 yard behind the tight ends. One of the slot players starts in motion after taking one step backwards A snaps the ball. Is this Illegal Motion. My first thought was that the player in motion had to be in motion for 1 second. but after looking in the rules book I believe I was wrong. But does A player have to be 5 yards deep before the snap.

No. There was a time way back when a back in motion had to be at least 5 yards behind his LOS, but now that applies only to a lineman becoming a back without setting. "1 yard behind the tight ends" means a backfield position, so if that player had already set, it's legal. And this "jump motion" is very common by teams using the double wing.

Fed was the last to abolish the "clearly backward" requirement for the MiM, and that was 20+ years ago.

Robert

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by ABO77

...In other words...one player alone (shifting) cannot cause an illegal shift.

However illegal motion can only involve one player...never two or more.

REPLY: ABO...I don't quite follow. If everyone is set and the QB steps to the snapper and sets, after which the snap occurs immediately (less than one second later), I contend you have an illegal shift. One player has caused this illegal shift. In NCAA, you'd be correct because their definition of a shift is different than the Fed's.

And, if on signal two backs mistakenly both begin motion parallel to the LOS and the ball is snapped, I would call this illegal motion. [Two players in motion at the snap]

Am I missing something in your post?

[ABO77]

Bob Im still trying to understand the QB exception if there is one for Fed...Ill look it up.

And yes two players in motion is Illegal motion, but I think its an illegal shift too. I would of just called this an Illegal shift.

My last post definitely had some holes in it.

[BoBo]

For bringing this up.

The gist of all this from my end was to get an answer as to whether kill the play or let it go and call live ball.

From the responses

Kill the false starts obviously.

The lineman putting his hand down was my grey area.

From the majority here you are saying live ball illegal shift/motion let the play go and see what happens.

OK thanks and sorry for the long discussion

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by ABO77

Bob Im still trying to understand the QB exception if there is one for Fed...Ill look it up.

And yes two players in motion is Illegal motion, but I think its an illegal shift too. I would of just called this an Illegal shift.

My last post definitely had some holes in it.

REPLY: I just used the QB play as an example. All I was trying to get at is that the Fed definition of 'shift' involves the movement of one or more players to a new set position. So even if one player moved to a new position and reset, everyone needs to be stopped for that one required second. If the snap goes off less than a second after he sets, you have an illegal shift. NCAA rules are different because their definition of a shift requires two or more players to new set positions. So the play I gave would be legal in an NCAA game.

As for two players in motion, it can only be an illegal shift if:
(a) they began moving less than a second after the rest of their team was set, or
(b) one of them stopped just prior to the snap (in which case it couldn't be illegal motion).

[Bob M.]

REPLY: BoBo...nothing to be sorry for. You asked a good question and generated some discussion. And it seems you got your answer. Good topic.

[Suudy]

Originally Posted by Bob M.

And, if on signal two backs mistakenly both begin motion parallel to the LOS and the ball is snapped, I would call this illegal motion. [Two players in motion at the snap]

I've alway heard the mantra "one in motion (illegally) one arm, two in motion two arms" for the signa. Thus the description above (two players in motion, parallel to the LOS) is, at least as I've seen it called, an illegal shift.

Hmmm.... Something to bring up at our next meeting.

[ABO77]

Ok, this may of been covered but what do we have in this play...

Case: all 11 players have gone to there pre-snap positions. The interior lineman are in a three point stance except for the left guard who is in in a two point stance. All 11 players have paused for one second and no player has gone in motion. As the left guard is shifting to a three point stance (with out a false start) the ball is snapped.

Illegal shift? Illegal motion?

I'm getting a little confused.