Illegal Motion vs False Start

[Fedex]

Originally Posted by ABO77

In the third play... this may or may not be a legal shift, but will always be illegal motion. Just because the one lineman was going to a three point stance when the ball was snapped, by itself, does not constitute an illegal shift.

However, a lineman shifting to a three point stance when the ball is snapped will always be illegal motion:

7-2-7....the player in motion shall be at least 5 yards behind his LOS at the snap if he started from any position not clearly behind the line...

I have to disagree. In the third play, it will always be an illegal shift and will never be illegal motion. You need to read 7-2-7 a little further. The player in motion shall be at least 5 yards behind his line of scrimmage at the snap if he started from any position not clearly behind the line and did not establish himself as a back by stopping for at least one full second while no part of his body is breaking the vertical plane through the waistline of his nearest teammate who is on the line of scrimmage. The lineman in the third play isn't attempting to go in motion by this definition. He is merely getting set. This is a shift. This is completely legal until the snap of the ball makes it illegal, per 7-2-6. Call it illegal shift.

Scott

[bigjohn]

7-2-6 is the one that not called about 3/4 of the time! All must set fot 1 full second or it is illegal shift. If the Qb sticks his hands under center and immediately says go and snap is immediate then it is illegal shift. Most of the time this is let go!

[MJT]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

7-2-6 is the one that not called about 3/4 of the time! All must set fot 1 full second or it is illegal shift. If the Qb sticks his hands under center and immediately says go and snap is immediate then it is illegal shift. Most of the time this is let go!

I would say that is a "talk to" situation the first time and it probably won't happen again. It also is one of those things that is ticky tack to call if he does actually get stopped, but maybe for only a short second, not a long second. A bigger issue that needs to be called is if the lineman are "rolling" into the snap as they never get set after going down cuz in that case an advantage is occurring.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: For the interior lineman who is in the process of placing his hand on the ground, I agree with mbcrowder...by itself, it's illegal motion. But I also agree with ABO that the entire situation might also be an illegal shift. The reason that the lineman's movement (by itself) can't be an illegal shift is very simple--he hasn't completed the movement. A (Federation) shift occurs when an offensive player moves from one set position to another set position. The fact that he wasn't set again means it's not a shift.

ABO's point recognizes the fact that this lineman isn't operating in a vacuum. It could very well be that the rest of the linemen had completed their 'shifts' to a three point stance less than the required second prior to our guy beginning his movement. Note that an illegal shift is a 'team' foul in that one person is never alone responsible. While that statement is always true for NCAA because of their definition of a shift, it is almost always true in Federation also.

[Fedex]

Originally Posted by Bob M.

REPLY: For the interior lineman who is in the process of placing his hand on the ground, I agree with mbcrowder...by itself, it's illegal motion. But I also agree with ABO that the entire situation might also be an illegal shift. The reason that the lineman's movement (by itself) can't be an illegal shift is very simple--he hasn't completed the movement. A (Federation) shift occurs when an offensive player moves from one set position to another set position. The fact that he wasn't set again means it's not a shift.

I'm going to stick with 7-2-6. After a huddle or shift all 11 players of A shall come to an absolute stop and remain stationary simultaneously without movement of hands, feet, head, or body for at least one second before the snap. illegal shift (Art. 6) - (S20).

The lineman goes from huddle to hands on knees. That's a legal shift. Afterwards, he begins to shift from hands on knees to 3 point and the ball is snapped before he can get to 3 point. This violates 7-2-6 and not 7-2-7! I leave 7-2-7 to motion by backs -- forward motion or 2 in motion at once. If the lineman was trying to establish himself as a back and go in motion, as per 7-2-7, and didn't do it correctly, I'd flag him for illegal motion. However, just trying to shift to a new stance and not conforming to 7-2-6, it's illegal shift.

Scott

[bigjohn]

I disagree MJT. I see this alot on 3 and short and 4th and short and the offense is running a sneak. The QB never really is ever set!

[Bob M.]

REPLY: FedEx...let's take a look at 7-2-6. It says "After a huddle or a shift..." So we know the 'huddle' is irrelevant to this play. So if 7-2-6 is to apply, there must have been a 'shift.' The definition of a shift requires that at least one player, after taking a set position, moves to another set position. Since the lineman never reached his new set position, exactly when did this shift take place?

Like I said, there could have been an illegal shift in this play depending on when the other linemen went to their final three-point stances. But if all the other linemen were set in their stances (for at least a second) and this lummox then began to drop but was still in the process of getting to his new set position, he hasn't yet shifted so it can't be an illegal shift.

But call it whatever you care to as long as you call it

[ABO77]

Fedex, the only way you can have 7-2-6 is if two or more players are involved. (except maybe for the QB)

In other words...one player alone (shifting) cannot cause an illegal shift.

However illegal motion can only involve one player...never two or more.

Case: all 11 players have gone to there pre-snap positions. The interior lineman are in a three point stance except for the left guard who is in in a two point stance. All 11 players have paused for one second and no player has gone in motion. As the left guard is shifting to a three point stance (with out a false start) the ball is snapped.

Illegal shift? Illegal motion?

[Fedex]

Bob,

Thanks for the clarification. I read your word document on motion vs shift and it has cleared it up for me. So, if the lineman goes from 2 point to 3 point and doesn't make it to the ground when the ball is snapped, it's illegal motion. If he makes it to the ground and 1 second hasn't elapsed before the snap, it's an illegal shift, right?

Scott

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by Fedex

Bob,

Thanks for the clarification. I read your word document on motion vs shift and it has cleared it up for me. So, if the lineman goes from 2 point to 3 point and doesn't make it to the ground when the ball is snapped, it's illegal motion. If he makes it to the ground and 1 second hasn't elapsed before the snap, it's an illegal shift, right?

Scott

REPLY: Yes...that's how I read it anyway. Technically, at least.

[LeRoy]

Team A lines up with both slots 1 yard behind the tight ends. One of the slot players starts in motion after taking one step backwards A snaps the ball. Is this Illegal Motion. My first thought was that the player in motion had to be in motion for 1 second. but after looking in the rules book I believe I was wrong. But does A player have to be 5 yards deep before the snap.

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by ABO77

...In other words...one player alone (shifting) cannot cause an illegal shift.

However illegal motion can only involve one player...never two or more.

REPLY: ABO...I don't quite follow. If everyone is set and the QB steps to the snapper and sets, after which the snap occurs immediately (less than one second later), I contend you have an illegal shift. One player has caused this illegal shift. In NCAA, you'd be correct because their definition of a shift is different than the Fed's.

And, if on signal two backs mistakenly both begin motion parallel to the LOS and the ball is snapped, I would call this illegal motion. [Two players in motion at the snap]

Am I missing something in your post?

[ABO77]

Bob Im still trying to understand the QB exception if there is one for Fed...Ill look it up.

And yes two players in motion is Illegal motion, but I think its an illegal shift too. I would of just called this an Illegal shift.

My last post definitely had some holes in it.

[Suudy]

Originally Posted by Bob M.

And, if on signal two backs mistakenly both begin motion parallel to the LOS and the ball is snapped, I would call this illegal motion. [Two players in motion at the snap]

I've alway heard the mantra "one in motion (illegally) one arm, two in motion two arms" for the signa. Thus the description above (two players in motion, parallel to the LOS) is, at least as I've seen it called, an illegal shift.

Hmmm.... Something to bring up at our next meeting.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by ABO77

However illegal motion can only involve one player...never two or more.

Um ... illegal motion is USUALLY more than 1 player. What else do you call 2 men in motion at the snap?