Is a strip a loose ball?

[Suudy]

I was discussing a scenario with some other officials, and we are stumped on the enforcement.

1st and 10 on A's 30. A9 drops back to pass. During the drop-back, B51 grabs and pulls A69's facemask at the A25. B51 strips the ball from A9 at the A20, and runs for a touchdown.

We can't figure out the spot of enforcement.

Is it a loose ball play? I argued that it was since there was a change of possession, thus the enforcement is from the A30. 1st and 10 on A's 45.

If not, then the end of the run is the A20. Since the foul occurred at the A25, we have 1st and 10 at the A40.

[MJT]

PS enforcement.

Rule 2 is the key.
Fumble - "is any loss of player possession other than by handing, passing, or legal kick.
Handing - "transferring player possession from one player to a teammate." Since it was not a teammate, we do not have handing, but do have a loss of player possession (fumble defn.), so 10-3 adn 10-4 say loose ball play and PS for basic spot.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: By definition, a strip is a fumble. Hence, your play features a foul by B followed immediately by a fumble by the QB behind the neutral zone. Also by definition, action during the fumble or during the run that preceded it is all part of the same loose ball play. Your argument was correct. Enforcement will be from the basic spot (the previous spot) resulting in a new series for A, 1st and 10 on A's 45.

[cmathews]

Bob,
I agree in this case the run is part of the loose ball play. It is part of the Loose Ball Play because the fumble ocurred behind the LOS...if it had ocurred beyond the LOS then it isn't part of the Loose Ball Play. In such a case as that the enforcement spot is the end of the run...

[DJ_NV]

This is one of those interesting penalty enforcement anomolies in NF that I wish they would change to the NCAA version.

In Fed, before a COP if a loose ball follows a run behind the NZ, then the run that preceded the loose ball is wrapped up into the original loose ball play and the BS is the PS. However, if there is no loose ball after a run that ends behind the NZ (like a QB sack) then the BS is the EOR, even though it's behind the NZ.

In NCAA, if a run ends behind the NZ, the BS is always the PS, not the EOR.

In other words, Team A is not "penalized" the lost yardage of a sack or a tackle behind the LOS because of a foul by B in NCAA. I've never seen a HS team or a coach that knows that if B fouls, it would be to their advantage to fumble or pass the ball backward if they are still behind the NZ in order to change the BS from the EOR to the PS.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: DJ_NV...I'm with you on that. There were rule proposals in the Fed this past season to effect such a change, but they didn't pass.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by cmathews

I agree in this case the run is part of the loose ball play. It is part of the Loose Ball Play because the fumble ocurred behind the LOS...if it had ocurred beyond the LOS then it isn't part of the Loose Ball Play. In such a case as that the enforcement spot is the end of the run...

This is really wack. I just learned in another thread of Fed's classif'n of loose ball plays like this, as the entire down. For fouls that occurred while the ball was in a player's possession, what was wrong with using the basic spot determination as for a running play, that Fed had to go & change it to something where a subsequent fumble can have such a perverse effect on the spot? In fact, I'd say that even for fouls while the fumbled ball is loose, using the end of the preceding run would be more equitable than the previous spot. And the way both Fed & NCAA define "fumble" (by exclusion), it's possible for runners to deliberately fumble any time they want to.

Robert