First 2 Games down

[Mike L]

Some interesting rule interpretations here. I'm just wondering if I've got it straight. Once a receiver makes a "cut" or once it's appears he no longer intends to block, he cannot be touched. And this may even create a delayed flag requirement to see if a pass is actually thrown. So....

1) say a receiver breaks on a quick slant at the snap and the defender contacts him. Does this count as a "cut"?

2) is it reasonable to assume on just about any pass play, no receiver will attempt to block since their job is to get open for the pass and therefore no contact is allowed at all and delayed flags should come raining down from just about everywhere?

3) is "bump & run" coverage illegal if the receiver immediately tries to break away from the defender? After all he's both cutting and not attempting to block. Or does this count as a cut? Are we supposed to try to determine what is a cut and what is just an altered route?

Yes, these are some extreme examples geared towards a certain point, which I'm sure you can all determine where I'm coming from. Perhaps we would be better off with the NFL 5yd bump rule since what it appears some may be trying to apply is much more restrictive.

[PaulJak]

Originally Posted by wheels

Paul,

As MJT siad, you also have to take a look at the QB as well. Your flag will come late if an attempted pass is trying to reach A. If no pass is attempted, you got nothing. You have to see the whole play, the BIG picture. Your second example I would say is correct.

I forgot to mention in my first scenario that it a pass was thrown.

You do raise an interesting point though, and I don't think the MJT was saying that a pass must be thrown before a flag is thrown. What if B blocks all the A receivers and A wasn't able to throw a pass or A wasn't able to throw as quickly because the primary receiver was blocked and then A was sacked. You said if no pass is attempted you've got nothing, but in this case, its the illegal act that has caused no pass to be attempted and I would think we should flag the illegal contact.

I agree you've got to see the BIG picture and understand what A was trying to do. If you feel that A was going to attempt a pass then you've got to flag the contact because the contact may have been the reason the pass wasn't attempted. If you don't feel that A was going to pass, then I think you let that contact go. We've got to make a judgement on A's intentions regarding pass or run, I don't think we can strictly go off of an actual pass - although the actual pass certainly makes A's intention known.

Thanks for the input and the great discussion on this topic

[l3will]

Originally Posted by MJT

But he is not going to look back towards the passer till he is where is supposed to be when the ball is thrown. Thus, you cannot use that as part of your judgment.

I cannot emphasize enough how when he makes his cut, he can no longer be hit by B.

As I keep saying... see the whole thing and rule accordingly... A1 drives 3 yards
forward then makes a cut parallel to the line of scrimmage....
a) A1 is not looking at the passer and runs into B2 who is stationary and reading the quarterback.
b) A1 is looking at the passer and runs into B2 who fends off A1 with his hands as B2 braces for the contact.
c) A1 is crossing on his pattern, B2 clearly moves toward A1 and contacts A1 from the side... A1 may or may not be looking at the QB.

In all cases, a pass is thrown towards A1... all contact happened prior to the
pass being thrown.

In a) and b), I'd probably have nothing.... but since I don't have the video
I'll leave myself an out.

[PaulJak]

Originally Posted by l3will

As I keep saying... see the whole thing and rule accordingly... A1 drives 3 yards
forward then makes a cut parallel to the line of scrimmage....
a) A1 is not looking at the passer and runs into B2 who is stationary and reading the quarterback.
b) A1 is looking at the passer and runs into B2 who fends off A1 with his hands as B2 braces for the contact.
c) A1 is crossing on his pattern, B2 clearly moves toward A1 and contacts A1 from the side... A1 may or may not be looking at the QB.

In all cases, a pass is thrown towards A1... all contact happened prior to the
pass being thrown.

In a) and b), I'd probably have nothing.... but since I don't have the video
I'll leave myself an out.

Without video and seeing it, in a) and b) I'd be considering OPI since A initiated contact. A knows the play and knows a pass is going to be thrown. in your a) B is stationary and reading the QB - I wouldn't allow an A player to make contact with him. A must avoid contact when running past a B player on a route, they can't just plow into him. In your b) A is again initiating contact. In both cases if a pass is thrown beyond the NZ I've got OPI on A. Eligible A's are restricted from initiating contact beyond the NZ from the snap so this to me is OPI.

[l3will]

PaulJak ..Good points about Offensive Pass Interference... brain too much focused on illegal use of hands.

[PaulJak]

I figured it was a brain lock on the illegal use of hands, but I had to clarify

If you're working tonight, good luck.

[MJT]

Originally Posted by l3will

As I keep saying... see the whole thing and rule accordingly... A1 drives 3 yards
forward then makes a cut parallel to the line of scrimmage....
a) A1 is not looking at the passer and runs into B2 who is stationary and reading the quarterback.
b) A1 is looking at the passer and runs into B2 who fends off A1 with his hands as B2 braces for the contact.
c) A1 is crossing on his pattern, B2 clearly moves toward A1 and contacts A1 from the side... A1 may or may not be looking at the QB.

In all cases, a pass is thrown towards A1... all contact happened prior to the
pass being thrown.

In a) and b), I'd probably have nothing.... but since I don't have the video
I'll leave myself an out.

Good discussion since I got last posted 2 nts ago. Didn't get much done yesterday on the boards as I got home from school, ran a few miles, showered and headed to our game. Hope those of you that worked last night had a great game. Ours was awesome!

I'd agree with most of the responses to questions. The key to the run/pass is the QB and you need to get a peek at him after the contact if possible. Often you can tell what is happening with him periphially as you continue to watch your receiver.
In the above post, I'd probably have OPI in (A), nothing in (B) cuz A1 is looking at the QB and B didn't initiate the contact, and DPI in (C) cuz team B moved to and initiated the contact.

[jjrye22]

In all cases the contact is made prior to the pass. So in c) you don't have DPI.

In terms of reading the QB/line - not at the levels I officiate. Your lucky if the line moves at all in any direction. As wheels described - Most of the time, should see... It might very well look like a run except tha ball is thrown, or look like a pass with just the one player running through the line with a ball. I'm still leaning towards no flag if the O player is coming towards a D player and the D player steps into the contact (with no ball in the air that is).

Again - different leagues, different associations, different points of emphasise.

James