"B" Games

[whistleone]

For those of you that work "B" games (ex. some schools have Frosh "A" & "B" teams), what is your philosophy on calling these games? How do you differentiate between a foul in the "A" game and a foul in the "B" game? How does your style change?

On a side note, what is the format of the "B" games? In Idaho, "B" games at the junior high level are run as 8 5-minute quarters with a running clock, stopped only to shoot free throws, during timeouts and the last two minutes of the 8th quarter.

[just another ref]

I think each game must be treated on an individual basis, regardless of the level. Some 8th grade games are higher quality than some varsity games. Even games between the same 2 teams can be dramatically different from one day to the next. The old saying "Let the game come to you." can not be overstated, in my opinion.

[firedoc]

I think that you should referee every contest without any comparison to any other game. The first 2 minutes of any game set the tone for the rest of the contest. During that time, the players adjust to the officials, and vice-versa.

In my county, middle school games are played as 5 7-minute quarters. Players cannot double team, and, during the first half of the season they cannot press in the backcourt (a stupid rule if you ask me). In the second half (the last 3 quarters) we play bonus on the 10th foul and double bonus on the 13th foul.

[Rick Vietti]

We have A/B Middle School games and we play 6 minute quarters and regular NFHS rules.

I know some will disagree but I am convinced that back court pressing should be disallowed at this level. Very few of these teams (at least here in Nevada) can handle a press at the MS level. These teams have 12 to 16 kids on the bench and they all are rotated into the game. This puts many unskilled players on to the court at various times.

So what you end up with is a jump ball and hack fest in the back court, instead of a flow to the game.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Rick Vietti
We have A/B Middle School games and we play 6 minute quarters and regular NFHS rules.

I know some will disagree but I am convinced that back court pressing should be disallowed at this level. Very few of these teams (at least here in Nevada) can handle a press at the MS level. These teams have 12 to 16 kids on the bench and they all are rotated into the game. This puts many unskilled players on to the court at various times.

So what you end up with is a jump ball and hack fest in the back court, instead of a flow to the game.

I am in an area where kids bounce the ball before they seem to walk. I would much rather have a press then wait until they get to the HS level and not have a clue what to do at that level. It is just a game, it is always good to learn things about the game. If they cannot handle the press, then maybe they should learn to dribble or pass more.

Peace

[LarryS]

I can't think of anything I do differently in a B game (but I have 8th grade boys A&B tonight so if I notice anything I'll post it). As others have said, the skill level dictates a lot. I recently had an 8th grade girls B team that could have taken the JV girls I called the night before.

In the district where I call JH games, all A team games are, as one coach put it, "normal basketball". Games between B teams are 10 minute running clock quarters (except last 2 minutes of each half) for 7th graders and 6 minute quarters for 8th grade (normal clock stoppage).

BTW, just to pick a little nit. You can't have "5 quarters" in a game that does not involve OT...you can have 5 periods.

[firedoc]

Here is another problem when you don't allow coverage in the backcourt: I did a game last night where the visiting team was up by 1 point with 8 seconds to go in the second half. They had a throw-in in their backcourt. All they had to do was hold the ball there and let the clock run out and they had a win. The home team had no chance to try to make a steal and score. It seems like an awful way to win a game (or lose one for that matter).

[Hawks Coach]

In our area, lower levels of rec ball do not allow pressing at all, and no double teams. Even with those kind of rules, scoring can be pretty sparse with the worst teams.

By 5th grade rec ball, you can press in the 4th quarter, unless up by >15 points. Eliminates the problem firedoc mentioned. In 7th grade rec, you can press the entire game, unless up by >15. Competitive leagues generally start at the 5th-6th grade level, and involve the better players. Pressing is allowed the whole game, regardless of score. I really don't have a problem with that either, because if you can't handle it, maybe you belong in rec or a lower level competitive league. Competitive leagues need to have a way to keep the quality at a sufficient level for that particular league.

This general progression through the age levels ensures that they can play and have a reasonable opportunity to score when they are young. It also introduces the concept of pressure gradually, so that by the time they get to HS they are used to it. And it allows the best players to get introduced to heavy poressure at a younger age because they have (or will be able to develop) the skills to handle it. In reality, the ones that are still in rec in 8th grade have little chance of contributing positively in HS unless they are awesome athletes that somehow never knew that better opportunities were out there.

[just another ref]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rick Vietti
[I know some will disagree but I am convinced that back court pressing should be disallowed at this level. Very few of these teams (at least here in Nevada) can handle a press at the MS level
__________________________________________________ __________


I strongly agree that the press should be limited at this level. Around here in the 9-12 year old league we allow the press only in the last 2 minutes of the game. The younger players are often overwhelmed by constant pressure and when the inevitable mismatch comes up full court pressure makes it that much more onesided.

[Mark Padgett]

We don't have school teams until HS in my town. Our local rec league starts in 3rd grade and goes through HS, with a competitive division for 5th through 8th.

Rec -
3rd and 4th, no zones, no double-teaming (one exception), no backcourt ever, 9 min. quarter running clock, nine-foot hoops, up to 5 seconds in key, no closely guarded counts, free throws shot from 11 feet

5th boys and 5/6 girls - HS rules except no backcourt until 4th quarter but not if up by 15+, free throws shot from 13 feet - 6 minute stop time quarters

6th boys, 7th boys, 8th boys and 7/8 girls - HS rules except no backcourt if up by 15+ - 7 minute stop time quarters

HS - HS rules except 20 min. running halves and only two 30 second TOs per half w/no carryover

Competitive Division
all grades - HS rules

3rd through 5th boys use intermediate ball

BTW - any profanity by a player or coach (except HS level) is a flagrant technical and includes ejection - at HS level, normal judgment regarding profanity applies

We've had this league since 1981 and this year, we have over 1400 kids in it. It seems to work.

[Hawks Coach]

MS players are generally 12-14 years old, so it is not clear why you would need a lot of limit for that age if you begin to allow pressing at the 9-12 age group. Esepcially since those that make a MS team usually are the 10-15 kids that made it through a 25-50 player tryout (at least in my area).

My opinion on pressing is just that they fail to learn to execute half court offenses if their team lives by just pressing and fast breaking. When kids get to HS and the presses don't yield as many turnovers, they will spend most of the game in a half court offense (this is true for the 95% of the players who do not attend the best pressing school in the area). If all these kids have ever done is press and run, you have no player who can function in a halfcourt game for 32 minutes.

I am a firm believer in teaching both aspects of the game, because you learn different skills in the open court then you do in the half court game. Players need to know how to bring and break full-court pressure, how to fast break, and how to run zone and man offense in the half court.

[BigJoe]

I live up in the sticks in Northern Minnesota. We work alot of small schools. We are hired to do the varsity and j.v. games. I feel it is very important to call the j.v. game the same way you will call the varsity game. The varsity coaches and players (if thy are smart) will watch how and what you call in the first game. Good officials will call the varsity contest the same way. Just another thought.

[bard]

8th grade boys, B team last night. Visitors down by about 30 with 2 minutes left, and the scrubs (the 'C' team) are all in. Pudgy, uncoordinated kid for the visitors fires one up with a toe on the 3-point line. I'm standing in front of the coach as it goes in. Coach says, "Aw, give him the 3."

I did.

[mick]

Originally posted by BigJoe
I live up in the sticks in Northern Minnesota. We work alot of small schools. We are hired to do the varsity and j.v. games. I feel it is very important to call the j.v. game the same way you will call the varsity game. The varsity coaches and players (if thy are smart) will watch how and what you call in the first game. Good officials will call the varsity contest the same way. Just another thought.

I was born on the Range.
Eveleth. ;-)

[Rick Vietti]

I did 2 MS girls games yesterday and they were horrible games.

I go back to my earlier post that backcourt guarding and pressing should be disallowed at this level. We had between 25 and 30 jump balls each game and I would bet 98% of them were off of the defensive rebound. I tend to call jump balls quickly at this level because they tend to lead to 2 people ending up on the floor and rough play further on. If this was higher level ball I would not be so quick on the whistle. We called 35 fouls the first game and 40 fouls the second game(In which a parent yelled at us when her daughter went down that we were letting the game get out of hand).

Why so many fouls, because the kids do not have the skills to break the press or guard on a press. Girls sticking their knee out to try and stop the advancing dribbler, guarding people like they wanted to hug them, etc...

Sorry to vent but I felt bad for the kids and parents expecting to see a basketball game and they end up participating in a rugby match.