NFHS Fouls on Scoring Play

[The Roamin' Umpire]

Originally Posted by ljudge

Is that what they're going with? If that's the case then B can take a free shot on the try. I mean, heck, he's got nothing more to lose unless the official rules the roughing flagrant.

A number of knowledgeable folks on the various boards have said this. I haven't heard anything official yet, though, and my reading of the new rule (from the NFHS website) doesn't suggest that enforcement to me. I think we'll end up enforcing both on the kickoff.

[w_sohl]

Originally Posted by The Roamin' Umpire

... I think we'll end up enforcing both on the kickoff.

I have to agree with you here, I think both get enforced on the kickoff. What if the try in unsuccessful though? Can we have one enforced on the try and the other on the kickoff? Can we enforce the penalties out of order in this situation?

[MJT]

Roamin Umpire, I'm not disagreeing that it could end up that we may be able to enforce both, but where do you read anything on the NF website that would indicate that?

I just think that it fits a multiple foul definition and that we will only be able to enforce one. I don't think a player ever thinks about "hey, they can only enforce one foul on the kick off and that was the one we had on the TD, so I am going to get a free shot at someone on this try!"

w_sohl, that is some creative thinking you have posed with your question. IMO, you definitely could enforce one on the replay of the try and the other on the KO, but I doubt you could switch the order. My bet is that if you decided to take the foul that occurred on the TD on the KO, you could not decide after a missed PAT in which there is a foul to take the 1st foul on the try, and the one that occurred on the try on the KO, but you never know. Obviously when you may want to do that would be if the foul on the TD was a 5 yarder and the foul on the try was a 10 or 15 yarder. I wonder if they have considered these options to be included in the case book.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: All I can say is that if the Fed ultimately decides not to enforce both penalties on the kickoff, they will be encouraging exactly what this rule was meant to prevent. Like ljudge said, the foul on the try--short of flagrant--will become a freebie. I understand that the Rules Committee left their meeting undecided as to how to deal with this. That some would point to 10-2-3 as justification is really disingenuous since we know that rule is referring to multiple fouls (look at the title of 10-2), which by definition must occur during the same down.

Let's take it to the extreme. Since their use of 10-2-3 is predicated upon the fact that somehow these fouls don't specifically need to occur during the same down for the rule to apply, why not use it to say that once a team has been penalized for a live ball foul, they can't be penalized for another--ever again in the game. Only slightly more ludicrous than their use.

[The Roamin' Umpire]

Originally Posted by MJT

Roamin Umpire, I'm not disagreeing that it could end up that we may be able to enforce both, but where do you read anything on the NF website that would indicate that?

Well, the new rules are listed at http://www.nfhs.org/web/2007/04/2007_football_rules_changes.aspx

Obviously, this isn't the exact text that's listed in the rulebook. But there's nothing in what they do say that suggests an enforcement on the play we're talking about, one way or the other...

I just think that it fits a multiple foul definition and that we will only be able to enforce one. I don't think a player ever thinks about "hey, they can only enforce one foul on the kick off and that was the one we had on the TD, so I am going to get a free shot at someone on this try!"

... however, my reasoning was basically along the same lines as Bob's. Neither 2-16-2d nor 10-2-3 specifically state that the fouls have to occur during the same down. But if you take the first sentence of 10-2-3 very literally, then once a team has had one penalty enforced for a LBF, they may not have any others enforced, ever. This, of course, is silly. There's no official interpretation because it's been obvious to everyone and there's never been a carry-over option for penalties where we've needed it before. Until we get one, I'm going with what makes the most sense to me: enforce both.

I agree that no player goes into a situation thinking that he gets a free shot... until he sees it happen to his team earlier in the game. Then things might get ugly really fast.

Originally Posted by w_sohl

I have to agree with you here, I think both get enforced on the kickoff. What if the try in unsuccessful though? Can we have one enforced on the try and the other on the kickoff? Can we enforce the penalties out of order in this situation?

By 8-3-6, if the try is unsuccessful and B fouls, the try is replayed after enforcement.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by MJT

I just think that it fits a multiple foul definition and that we will only be able to enforce one. I don't think a player ever thinks about "hey, they can only enforce one foul on the kick off and that was the one we had on the TD, so I am going to get a free shot at someone on this try!"

Even when they get a whole down to think about it?

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Even when they get a whole down to think about it?

REPLY: And it doesn't even have to be intentional to be contrary to the principle. Roughing the kicker on the successful try when the Team K coach doesn't want to take the points off the board, or roughing the passer or a personal foul face mask on a successful two point try. Even though all may be unintentional, they're all 'freebies' the way the new rule is constructed/interpreted.

[ljudge]

I brought this up in our college rules meeting tonight to understand how we do this in NCAA. Consensus was that both could be enforced on the kickoff.

[STEVED21]

Just reviewed the 2006 case book & the 2007 wording is definitely new. Last years' ruling was enforce on the try for the first foul (during the TD run) and either half the distance or enforce on the KO four the foul on the try. The choice of foul to be enforce is all new. I hope they change this when they issue the annual "mistakes" page.

[Theisey]

Originally Posted by ljudge

I brought this up in our college rules meeting tonight to understand how we do this in NCAA. Consensus was that both could be enforced on the kickoff.

That consensus would be correct as well as there is no rule book/AR verbiage that says you cannot (as opposed to the 2007 NFHS case book that says team-A has to choose).

One thing to remember, NCAA only, is that only Personal Fouls are eligible for the carry-over. That means those 5 or 10 yarders will NOT carry-over and are declined "by rule".