Fed: ineligible downfield on wedge pass

[Robert Goodman]

Wedge plays are those in which team A linemen exert force without illegal use of hands on teammates in front of them who block opponents. One player is in the apex of the wedge, and teammates either side of hir use their inside shoulders on the butt or rib cage of the apex player, the players to their sides do the same to them, etc., and buried in there (but not being pushed by them) is the ballcarrier.

Suppose a team has in its wedge series of plays some forward passes thrown across the neutral zone. Suppose that before the pass is thrown, ineligible receiver A1 has crossed to B's side of the neutral zone and is not in direct contact with a player of B, but is wedging A2 who is in contact with B1. Further suppose A1 continues moving forward as part of the wedge throughout the interval preceding the pass, and that A2 has been in contact with B1 since the initial line charge, B1 having been close to B's LOS when the ball was put in play.

Is A1 illegally downfield?

Now, same question with A1 but not A2 in contact with an opponent. A2 is leaning back on A1 and letting A1 drive hir forward in this case.

Robert

[HLin NC]

on a question for NF 7-5-12- Is A1 illegally downfield?

Ineligible A players may not advance beyond the expanded neutral zone on a legal forward pass play before a legal forward pass that crosses the neutral zone is in flight.

If they have crossed the ENZ before the pass is thrown then yes, one or both of them are downfield illegally.

Wedges and apexes aside, where you are looking for the loophole:

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An ineligible is not illegally downfield if, at the snap, he immediately contacts a B lineman and the contact does not continue beyond the expanded neutral zone.

isn't one because A contacted another A player, not a B player, and the contact must still not go beyond the ENZ.

Has A1 crossed the ENZ (2 yds.) prior to the pass in your scenarios? If the answer is yes, then he is IDF.

[grantsrc]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Wedge plays are those in which team A linemen exert force without illegal use of hands on teammates in front of them who block opponents. One player is in the apex of the wedge, and teammates either side of hir use their inside shoulders on the butt or rib cage of the apex player, the players to their sides do the same to them, etc., and buried in there (but not being pushed by them) is the ballcarrier.

Suppose a team has in its wedge series of plays some forward passes thrown across the neutral zone. Suppose that before the pass is thrown, ineligible receiver A1 has crossed to B's side of the neutral zone and is not in direct contact with a player of B, but is wedging A2 who is in contact with B1. Further suppose A1 continues moving forward as part of the wedge throughout the interval preceding the pass, and that A2 has been in contact with B1 since the initial line charge, B1 having been close to B's LOS when the ball was put in play.

Is A1 illegally downfield?

Now, same question with A1 but not A2 in contact with an opponent. A2 is leaning back on A1 and letting A1 drive hir forward in this case.

Robert

I have no idea what you are getting at with this description, but here's an easy way to avoid having ineligible receiver, if the ball is thrown behind the line then ineligibles don't come into play. But since you said the ball is thrown across the LOS, then don't have anyone go downfield. It doesn't matter if someone is engaged with a defensive player or not.

[Jim D]

If A1 has not gone past the expanded neutral zone (2 yards) and A2 is behind him wedging him forward as described, then A2 is at most a yard past the original neutral zone, which is not going to be a problem as far a being illegally down field.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Jim D

If A1 has not gone past the expanded neutral zone (2 yards) and A2 is behind him wedging him forward as described, then A2 is at most a yard past the original neutral zone, which is not going to be a problem as far a being illegally down field.

OK for the case in which A1 is in contact with B1. What about the case in which A2 is in contact with B1, but A1 is in contact only with teammates who have driven hir beyond the expanded NZ? Does "advance beyond the expanded neutral zone" include cases where the ineligible receiver isn't advancing under hir own power but pushed by a teammate?

Robert

[Jim D]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

OK for the case in which A1 is in contact with B1. What about the case in which A2 is in contact with B1, but A1 is in contact only with teammates who have driven hir beyond the expanded NZ? Does "advance beyond the expanded neutral zone" include cases where the ineligible receiver isn't advancing under hir own power but pushed by a teammate?

Robert

If ineligible A1 is downfield (past the expanded neutral zone) on a pass play, it's illegal no matter how he got there - whether on his own power or if he's pushed, which is one problem with the blocking technique you presented.

[MJT]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

OK for the case in which A1 is in contact with B1. What about the case in which A2 is in contact with B1, but A1 is in contact only with teammates who have driven hir beyond the expanded NZ? Does "advance beyond the expanded neutral zone" include cases where the ineligible receiver isn't advancing under hir own power but pushed by a teammate?

Robert

Yes it does. Where are you going with this anyway?

[HLin NC]

Some sort of exception, it would appear.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by MJT

Where are you going with this anyway?

I'm volunteering to coach some youth football, thinking of putting in a wedge series, and seeing what I can do. It doesn't look like the cases presented here would be a problem, because the pass is unlikely to be withheld long enough that any of the wedgers would get more than 2 yards downfield. (Older Fed rules gave the officials a lot more discretion in ruling on ineligibles downfield, even saying they should not have a definite distance in mind!) The passes are likely to be quick ones, thrown over the middle or outside just as the wedge forms. However, I could imagine a wedge pass in which the ballcarrier (the QB in my scheme) would wait for the wedge to get going, squat and even take a couple of steps with it, then step back into or behind the NZ and fire, and in that case the apex of the wedge might well have gotten pushed beyond the expanded NZ.

Or I could look at it from the defense's POV. If the safety can see that some part of the wedge has gotten past the ENZ, then s/he can safely forget about pass coverage.

From what I read from coaches who coach the wedge, their main problem has been illegal use of hands calls. The techniques they coach commonly call for putting the inside hand on the back or butt of the wedger ahead of you, and some have the outside hand on the inside shoulder of the wedger ahead of you. If the hand is relaxed that should be no problem, but I anticipate a tendency to either grab the teammate's shirt with the inside hand or to put the outside hand over the shoulder of the teammate. Therefore I'm going to try to coach the wedgers to keep their hands on the ground, and make contact only via the shoulder.

Robert

[HLin NC]

YOUTH football? What age group? I foresee half the team downfield before a youth QB could get off a pass, much less a quick one.

Must be a mighty advanced group of kids you have in your community.

[grantsrc]

Originally Posted by HLin NC

YOUTH football? What age group? I foresee half the team downfield before a youth QB could get off a pass, much less a quick one.

Must be a mighty advanced group of kids you have in your community.

Agreed. I don't think this is something that could even be properly executed at some high schools I work. Maybe even some of the colleges.

I think it might more beneficial to worry about coaching the basics, formation, lining up right, remembering the snap count, before getting into teaching them the West Coast offense or Run and Gun!!

[jaybird]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

I'm volunteering to coach some youth football, thinking of putting in a wedge series, and seeing what I can do. It doesn't look like the cases presented here would be a problem, because the pass is unlikely to be withheld long enough that any of the wedgers would get more than 2 yards downfield. (Older Fed rules gave the officials a lot more discretion in ruling on ineligibles downfield, even saying they should not have a definite distance in mind!) The passes are likely to be quick ones, thrown over the middle or outside just as the wedge forms. However, I could imagine a wedge pass in which the ballcarrier (the QB in my scheme) would wait for the wedge to get going, squat and even take a couple of steps with it, then step back into or behind the NZ and fire, and in that case the apex of the wedge might well have gotten pushed beyond the expanded NZ.

Or I could look at it from the defense's POV. If the safety can see that some part of the wedge has gotten past the ENZ, then s/he can safely forget about pass coverage.

From what I read from coaches who coach the wedge, their main problem has been illegal use of hands calls. The techniques they coach commonly call for putting the inside hand on the back or butt of the wedger ahead of you, and some have the outside hand on the inside shoulder of the wedger ahead of you. If the hand is relaxed that should be no problem, but I anticipate a tendency to either grab the teammate's shirt with the inside hand or to put the outside hand over the shoulder of the teammate. Therefore I'm going to try to coach the wedgers to keep their hands on the ground, and make contact only via the shoulder.

Robert

Don't complicate matters. Keep it simple, teach some fundamentals and have fun! All you need is about 4 or 5 plays (then run them to the other side and it appears that you have 8 or 10).
Something about linemen and wedge(e)s in the same sentence just doesn't paint a pretty picture! lol

[Bob M.]

REPLY: Before we get too far afield on this one...remember that the neutral zone expands only for those players who immediately contact a B lineman and don't proceed further than the 2 yd. expansion. A Team A lineman who is not blocking a defensive lineman must not go past the NZ (B's line of scrimmage) at all until the pass is in flight. There's no two-yard expansion for such a player.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by HLin NC

YOUTH football? What age group? I foresee half the team downfield before a youth QB could get off a pass, much less a quick one.

Must be a mighty advanced group of kids you have in your community.

Here in the Bronx, somewhere from 7 thru 18 YO. Don't know yet which group I'll get.

My understanding is that with the younger ages, you're best off with either no passing or quick passes. I was told by one parent that last year they could hardly get off any passes, the rush would be on top of them so fast. So I'm thinking no step drop, just raise the ball & shoot. The reason I'm looking to work it off wedge action is that the wedge is so basic, easy to teach (no blocking rules to memorize, don't even look at the defense) that I want to see how much I could work off it.

I'm looking to implement some version of http://users.bestweb.net/~robgood/fo...Horse_Fly.html , as age appropriate. QB would get the ball snapped into hir dominant hand, should be that much faster to get a quick pass off.

Robert

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Bob M.

REPLY: Before we get too far afield on this one...remember that the neutral zone expands only for those players who immediately contact a B lineman and don't proceed further than the 2 yd. expansion. A Team A lineman who is not blocking a defensive lineman must not go past the NZ (B's line of scrimmage) at all until the pass is in flight. There's no two-yard expansion for such a player.

Wouldn't be a problem, probably, for the basic (quick) wedge pass I had in mind, only for the more speculative one I mentioned. The guards would form on the center, the tackles on the guards, then one or both ends would step inward as they would for the wedge, but proceed to cross to B's side across the middle and be delivered a pass as they get in front of the QB; s/he could nearly hand the ball over the crouching linemen. Not enough time for the wedge to start moving forward more than a step or so. The only danger would be if the center is completely uncovered, and those making zero contact with an opponent; in such a case s/he might have to lean back on the guards to prevent being driven across the NZ before the ball leaves the passer's hand.

In videos I've seen, it usually takes at least a full second for the wedge to form & start moving forward, so I think the quickie pass would be OK unless the defense leaves the center uncovered, not even in the A gap -- but in such a case, we wouldn't be likely to pass anyway.

Robert