Which Order to Give Signals

[Ed Hickland]

I had the following play:

Fourth down. Player in position to punt. Ball goes over his head. He chases it down and immediately falls on it. B player comes in and jumps on him. Flag for late hit.

Ball went to B on downs and B was penalized 15 yards for a dead ball personal foul.

When it came time to signal I was unsure which was the correct order. Do you signal first down then dead ball personal then first down after setting chains? Or, just dead ball personal, set the chains and then first down?

I imagine the fans in the stands would be wondering why you walk off 15 then give the ball to receiving team after the penalty.

[grantsrc]

If I remember correctly, this was in Referee Mag last year as a side note. I think you give the first down signal first, then the DB and the others afterwards.

[ljudge]

I recall reading that same article and I remember it the same way you do, Grant.

[mcrowder]

I did not read the referee article, and would submit that finding "facts" there or suggested "proper" procedures has been problematical in the past.

Do as you normally do. Signal DB (when appropriate), signal the foul, then tell everyone the down. Why would it be any different in this particular instance?

Dead ball
PF on B
First down for B.

And no, this would not be confusing to anyone - we've all seen fouls on B during a return or DB PF's on B after a return was over, and they are all signalled just like this one.

[Two Call]

What Grant is describing is how it reads in the NFHS official manual.It was a change for 2006-07

[grantsrc]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

I did not read the referee article, and would submit that finding "facts" there or suggested "proper" procedures has been problematical in the past.

I whole heartedly agree, but I think the article was in the same issue with the '06 Fed changes.

[Theisey]

I would signal exactly as described by MCrowder. Can't see any reason to do it any other way.

[Two Call]

So, you're saying forget the manual and do it your way? Any other rules/mechanics you treat "cafeteria style"?

[Texas Aggie]

Keep in mind that MC and several of us work NCAA only (even for HS). It was never made clear in the original play or that in the Referee article Fed mechanics are involved.

[Forksref]

I agree with the order. I make sure that the first down signal is given at the new LOS (after the yardage is marked off) and not at the spot of the foul so as not to confuse people into thinking that it would be more than 1st and 10.

[Theisey]

Originally Posted by Two Call

What Grant is describing is how it reads in the NFHS official manual.It was a change for 2006-07

Well, did you read the section in the NF book?

Here it is:
G: when dead-ball fouls occur after fourth down:
1: Signal any live ball fouls
2: Signal first down
3: Signal dead ball
4: Signal the dead ball foul.

If your have live ball fouls to deal with, why in the world are you then doing steps 2,3 and 4?

In case you haven't been dealing with NFHS publications, they do have errors in them. In this case, this sequence is wrong as written.

I have no problem if an official wants to do steps 3,4,2 or 2,3,4. Both are
perfectly correct in my opinion, though I favor steps 3,4,2 because the normal handling of penalties is to signal the foul, mark off the penalty and them signal either the next down (or LOD) or signal first down. That makes more sense to me.

Now, what's for lunch in the cafeteria?

[grantsrc]

Originally Posted by Theisey

Well, did you read the section in the NF book?

Here it is:
G: when dead-ball fouls occur after fourth down:
1: Signal any live ball fouls
2: Signal first down
3: Signal dead ball
4: Signal the dead ball foul.

If your have live ball fouls to deal with, why in the world are you then doing steps 2,3 and 4?

In case you haven't been dealing with NFHS publications, they do have errors in them. In this case, this sequence is wrong as written.

I have no problem if an official wants to do steps 3,4,2 or 2,3,4. Both are
perfectly correct in my opinion, though I favor steps 3,4,2 because the normal handling of penalties is to signal the foul, mark off the penalty and them signal either the next down (or LOD) or signal first down. That makes more sense to me.

Now, what's for lunch in the cafeteria?

Play situation:
4 and 8th from A 48. A is illegally in motion when the ball is snapped way over the punters head. He falls on the ball at the A 20. After he falls on the ball, B99 jumps on the punter.

So according to the Official's Manual, the reporting sequence would look like:
1. Signal live ball foul
2. Decline penalty
3. Signal first down for team B
4. Dead ball
5. Personal Foul

Even though there is a live ball foul, you would still have to go through the dead ball reporting.

Now, as for the signalling order, for those of you who have posted here and other boards know I am a fairly by the book person. I would probably go by the book here. Now, can you give the LBF then the DBF followed by a first down, certainly.

Something else I'm learning is that we, as officials, have a lot of varience in mechanics, philosophies, and procedures. There are even differences between NCAA D1 conferences. Not really sure why that is, but for some reason various conferences, states, or associations choose to do it their own way. I guess they are in line at the cafe too.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Ed Hickland

I had the following play:

Fourth down. Player in position to punt. Ball goes over his head. He chases it down and immediately falls on it. B player comes in and jumps on him. Flag for late hit.

Ball went to B on downs and B was penalized 15 yards for a dead ball personal foul.

When it came time to signal I was unsure which was the correct order. Do you signal first down then dead ball personal then first down after setting chains? Or, just dead ball personal, set the chains and then first down?

I imagine the fans in the stands would be wondering why you walk off 15 then give the ball to receiving team after the penalty.

The R would whistle the play dead and stop the clock. Then throw the flag. His signalling is:

1. UR - Piling On
2. First Down to B

[Theisey]

Don't assume the live ball foul has to be on team-A. It could be just as easily on team-B therefore the signalling sequence is incorrect.

[The Roamin' Umpire]

From my Fed mechanics manual (2006-2007), p. 42, under "Administering Penalties":

G. When dead-ball fouls occur after fourth down.
1. Signal any live-ball fouls.
2. Signal first down.
3. Signal dead ball.
4. Signal the dead-ball fouls.

That said, I suspect this is intended only for plays without a change of possession. Seems to me that the "standard" order would work fine here.