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Sun Oct 30, 2005, 04:43pm
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NFHS, Rule 6-4-3-e:
AP throw-ins shall be from the OOB spot nearest to where the ball was located. An AP throw-in shall result when. . .the ball becomes dead when neither team is in control and no goal, infraction, nor end of a quarter/extra period is involved. Could someone please explain a real game situation where this could occur? I'm having trouble imagining this scenario.
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Quitters never win, winners never quit, but those who never win AND never quit are idiots. 
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Sun Oct 30, 2005, 04:46pm
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Answering my own question
Would an example of this be a double foul while a missed shot is in the air?
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Quitters never win, winners never quit, but those who never win AND never quit are idiots.
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Sun Oct 30, 2005, 04:49pm
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Double foul on a missed ahot, double foul on a rebound, double foul on a throw in... See other post on POI
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Sun Oct 30, 2005, 04:51pm
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(RookieDude raising hand)...I know, I know!!
With my newfound knowledge, I will give you a real game situation... A1 puts up a try...while the ball is in the air, A2 and B2 push each other, commiting a double foul. The official blows the whistle as the try is missed. Watta ya got? Edit: Dang...to slow. Kelvin has this one nailed!  [Edited by RookieDude on Oct 30th, 2005 at 04:55 PM]
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Dan Ivey Tri-City Sports Officials Asso. (TCSOA) Member since 1989 Richland, WA
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Sun Oct 30, 2005, 06:24pm
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Re: OK
Quote:
I came to this site to clarify the POI and Team Control stuff also. There was some confusion between some of my fellow officials. (Me included) Don't tell anyone, but I have to talk about this at our upcoming association meeting...sometimes we can all use a little help.
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Dan Ivey Tri-City Sports Officials Asso. (TCSOA) Member since 1989 Richland, WA
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Sun Oct 30, 2005, 06:35pm
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Hold on folks, what about the part of the rule that mplagrow posted that says "... no infraction... is involved."?
All of your examples are about double fouls, which are infractions. I can't think of an example, but right now I'm not thinking very straight at all about anytning!
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Sun Oct 30, 2005, 06:47pm
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Quote:
Also, you get an AP under the weird situation(s) listed in R5-4-3. An example of that might be fans coming on to the court during a rebound. [Edited by Jurassic Referee on Oct 30th, 2005 at 06:50 PM]
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Sun Oct 30, 2005, 07:44pm
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The ball gets lodged or comes to rest on the flange seems to fit the definition.
Mregor
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Some people are like Slinkies... Not really good for anything, but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs.
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Sun Oct 30, 2005, 09:06pm
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Quote:
You only go to the arrow on when there is no way to know who would have got the ball next if the whistle hadn't been blown.
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Owner/Developer of RefTown.com Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association
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Sun Oct 30, 2005, 09:09pm
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Quote:
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Any NCAA rules and interpretations in this post are relevant for men's games only!
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Mon Oct 31, 2005, 02:04am
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Quote:
Here is what I mean... Team A has ball for throw-in, pass is released and ball is in flight when A and B commit a double foul. Who would have the ball when the whistle was blown? This is no different (using NFHS definitions) than a ball in flight on a shot. You dont know if pass will be intercepted, caught by A etc, and as we all know and discussed there is no team control on a throw-in. If the Double foul happened prior to ball being handed to thrower I believe POI would be to call the foul and give it again to thrower but once ball is in the air you now have neither team in control, and there is no way to determine who would have had the ball if the whistle had not blown. The comment is pretty clear that AP is used when POI cannot be determined. How do you determine POI on a throw-in once the ball is in flight? If it were a foul only on offense it would be a 1 and 1. Double foul seems to go to the AP. As we have discussed here NFHS is all about rules consistency. Ball in flight with no team control and whistle is no different on a shot, throwin, rebound, or jump ball
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Mon Oct 31, 2005, 02:38am
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Quote:
Why? Because the new rule specifically says to do so. 4-36-2b "A free throw or a throw-in when the stoppage occurred during this activity or if a team is entitled to such."
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Mon Oct 31, 2005, 03:22am
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I am going to tell you that the rules committee did a poor job of writing this rule..
What does it mean that "play is resumed by a FT or throw-in when the stoppage occurred during this activity?" Are you telling me that because a double foul happens during a FT (once the ball has been released on the last shot) that you give it back to the team and have them shoot it again?...( remember FT try does not end until it is sucessful, when it is certain it will be unsuceessful,or whn it touches, the floor, a player or it becomes dead).. So by this logic until the FT ends you redo the FT when the stoppage ocuured during this activity. No way! no how! So what is the definitonal difference between a shot taken and a ball in flight on a throw-in. I believe that 4-36 b in the rule was written to deal with the double garbage that occurs while the ball to be put in play by a FT or throw-in (I want to say a dead ball but this would not quite exactly true) If the double foul occurred up until the time the FT shooter releases the ball, we would blow it dead and resume with a FT. I believe this would be the same on a throw-in. This is different than a pass mid air from A1 to A2 where there is team control.
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Mon Oct 31, 2005, 03:38am
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Well, now you are half right.
1. If the double-foul during a FT occurs prior to the release, you blow the whistle for the foul. Since it is NOT a foul just by the defense, continuous motion does not apply and the ball is dead. The game would be resumed by readministering the FT. 2. If the double-foul occurs AFTER the FT has been released then there is NO TEAM CONTROL. The try is in flight. The new POI definition tells us to do one of three things to resume the game: a. administer the next FT, if more are merited, b. award the ball OOB along the endline (with running) to Team B if the try was successful, c. go to the AP if the try misses. You would not redo the FT that had already been released. You got that right. But you are failing to grasp that "when the FT ends" has nothing to do with either Team Control or the new POI definition. It is all about the time of the release. The key difference is that a pass in flight retains team control while a try in flight, even a FT, does not. Hope that helps clarify it.
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