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Old Sun Oct 30, 2005, 04:43pm
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NFHS, Rule 6-4-3-e:
AP throw-ins shall be from the OOB spot nearest to where the ball was located. An AP throw-in shall result when. . .the ball becomes dead when neither team is in control and no goal, infraction, nor end of a quarter/extra period is involved.

Could someone please explain a real game situation where this could occur? I'm having trouble imagining this scenario.
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Old Sun Oct 30, 2005, 04:46pm
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Answering my own question

Would an example of this be a double foul while a missed shot is in the air?
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Old Sun Oct 30, 2005, 04:49pm
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Double foul on a missed ahot, double foul on a rebound, double foul on a throw in... See other post on POI
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Old Sun Oct 30, 2005, 04:51pm
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(RookieDude raising hand)...I know, I know!!

With my newfound knowledge, I will give you a real game situation...

A1 puts up a try...while the ball is in the air, A2 and B2 push each other, commiting a double foul.
The official blows the whistle as the try is missed.

Watta ya got?

Edit: Dang...to slow. Kelvin has this one nailed!

[Edited by RookieDude on Oct 30th, 2005 at 04:55 PM]
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Old Sun Oct 30, 2005, 04:57pm
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OK

Guess I've been off the board for too long. . . .
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Old Sun Oct 30, 2005, 06:24pm
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Re: OK

Quote:
Originally posted by mplagrow
Guess I've been off the board for too long. . . .
Don't feel bad mplagrow...
I came to this site to clarify the POI and Team Control stuff also. There was some confusion between some of my fellow officials. (Me included)

Don't tell anyone, but I have to talk about this at our upcoming association meeting...sometimes we can all use a little help.
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Old Sun Oct 30, 2005, 06:35pm
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Hold on folks, what about the part of the rule that mplagrow posted that says "... no infraction... is involved."?

All of your examples are about double fouls, which are infractions.

I can't think of an example, but right now I'm not thinking very straight at all about anytning!
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Old Sun Oct 30, 2005, 06:47pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by mplagrow
NFHS, Rule 6-4-3-e:
AP throw-ins shall be from the OOB spot nearest to where the ball was located. An AP throw-in shall result when. . .the ball becomes dead when neither team is in control and no goal, infraction, nor end of a quarter/extra period is involved.

Could someone please explain a real game situation where this could occur? I'm having trouble imagining this scenario.
How about an inadvertant whistle with neither team in control- rebound, missed last FT,etc.? See R4-36-1 and 4-36-2(c).

Also, you get an AP under the weird situation(s) listed in R5-4-3. An example of that might be fans coming on to the court during a rebound.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Oct 30th, 2005 at 06:50 PM]
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Old Sun Oct 30, 2005, 07:44pm
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The ball gets lodged or comes to rest on the flange seems to fit the definition.

Mregor
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Old Sun Oct 30, 2005, 09:06pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kelvin green
Double foul on a missed ahot, double foul on a rebound, double foul on a throw in... See other post on POI
I don't believe a double foul on a throwin does applies. There was likely an infraction or goal involved that was the reason for the throwin. The team throwing the ball in earned a throwin due to a prior infraction and the double foul doesn't negate that. This same language is used in discussions of an inadvertant whistle. The ball shall go back to the team that has the ball for the throwin.

You only go to the arrow on when there is no way to know who would have got the ball next if the whistle hadn't been blown.
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Old Sun Oct 30, 2005, 09:09pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mregor
The ball gets lodged or comes to rest on the flange seems to fit the definition.
As long as the "wedgie" is the result of a try. If it's the result of a deflected pass, then there's still team control.
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Old Mon Oct 31, 2005, 02:04am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Camron Rust
Quote:
Originally posted by Kelvin green
Double foul on a missed ahot, double foul on a rebound, double foul on a throw in... See other post on POI
I don't believe a double foul on a throwin does applies. There was likely an infraction or goal involved that was the reason for the throwin. The team throwing the ball in earned a throwin due to a prior infraction and the double foul doesn't negate that. This same language is used in discussions of an inadvertant whistle. The ball shall go back to the team that has the ball for the throwin.

You only go to the arrow on when there is no way to know who would have got the ball next if the whistle hadn't been blown.
My point exactly- I dont think you would give it back to team who had ball.

Here is what I mean...

Team A has ball for throw-in, pass is released and ball is in flight when A and B commit a double foul.

Who would have the ball when the whistle was blown? This is no different (using NFHS definitions) than a ball in flight on a shot. You dont know if pass will be intercepted, caught by A etc, and as we all know and discussed there is no team control on a throw-in.

If the Double foul happened prior to ball being handed to thrower I believe POI would be to call the foul and give it again to thrower but once ball is in the air you now have neither team in control, and there is no way to determine who would have had the ball if the whistle had not blown.

The comment is pretty clear that AP is used when POI cannot be determined. How do you determine POI on a throw-in once the ball is in flight?
If it were a foul only on offense it would be a 1 and 1. Double foul seems to go to the AP. As we have discussed here NFHS is all about rules consistency. Ball in flight with no team control and whistle is no different on a shot, throwin, rebound, or jump ball


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Old Mon Oct 31, 2005, 02:38am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kelvin green
Quote:
Originally posted by Camron Rust
Quote:
Originally posted by Kelvin green
Double foul on a missed ahot, double foul on a rebound, double foul on a throw in... See other post on POI
I don't believe a double foul on a throwin does applies. There was likely an infraction or goal involved that was the reason for the throwin. The team throwing the ball in earned a throwin due to a prior infraction and the double foul doesn't negate that. This same language is used in discussions of an inadvertant whistle. The ball shall go back to the team that has the ball for the throwin.

You only go to the arrow on when there is no way to know who would have got the ball next if the whistle hadn't been blown.
My point exactly- I dont think you would give it back to team who had ball.

Here is what I mean...

Team A has ball for throw-in, pass is released and ball is in flight when A and B commit a double foul.

Who would have the ball when the whistle was blown? This is no different (using NFHS definitions) than a ball in flight on a shot. You dont know if pass will be intercepted, caught by A etc, and as we all know and discussed there is no team control on a throw-in.

If the Double foul happened prior to ball being handed to thrower I believe POI would be to call the foul and give it again to thrower but once ball is in the air you now have neither team in control, and there is no way to determine who would have had the ball if the whistle had not blown.

The comment is pretty clear that AP is used when POI cannot be determined. How do you determine POI on a throw-in once the ball is in flight?
If it were a foul only on offense it would be a 1 and 1. Double foul seems to go to the AP. As we have discussed here NFHS is all about rules consistency. Ball in flight with no team control and whistle is no different on a shot, throwin, rebound, or jump ball
But the correct answer is that you DO give it back to the team which was making the throw-in as long as the double-foul occurs during the throw-in. In other words, prior to the ball being touched inbounds.

Why? Because the new rule specifically says to do so.

4-36-2b
"A free throw or a throw-in when the stoppage occurred during this activity or if a team is entitled to such."

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Old Mon Oct 31, 2005, 03:22am
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I am going to tell you that the rules committee did a poor job of writing this rule..

What does it mean that "play is resumed by a FT or throw-in when the stoppage occurred during this activity?"

Are you telling me that because a double foul happens during a FT (once the ball has been released on the last shot) that you give it back to the team and have them shoot it again?...(
remember FT try does not end until it is sucessful, when it is certain it will be unsuceessful,or whn it touches, the floor, a player or it becomes dead)..

So by this logic until the FT ends you redo the FT when the stoppage ocuured during this activity. No way! no how!

So what is the definitonal difference between a shot taken and a ball in flight on a throw-in.

I believe that 4-36 b in the rule was written to deal with the double garbage that occurs while the ball to be put in play by a FT or throw-in (I want to say a dead ball but this would not quite exactly true)

If the double foul occurred up until the time the FT shooter releases the ball, we would blow it dead and resume with a FT. I believe this would be the same on a throw-in.

This is different than a pass mid air from A1 to A2 where there is team control.


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Old Mon Oct 31, 2005, 03:38am
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Well, now you are half right.

1. If the double-foul during a FT occurs prior to the release, you blow the whistle for the foul. Since it is NOT a foul just by the defense, continuous motion does not apply and the ball is dead. The game would be resumed by readministering the FT.

2. If the double-foul occurs AFTER the FT has been released then there is NO TEAM CONTROL. The try is in flight. The new POI definition tells us to do one of three things to resume the game: a. administer the next FT, if more are merited, b. award the ball OOB along the endline (with running) to Team B if the try was successful, c. go to the AP if the try misses.

You would not redo the FT that had already been released. You got that right.

But you are failing to grasp that "when the FT ends" has nothing to do with either Team Control or the new POI definition. It is all about the time of the release.

The key difference is that a pass in flight retains team control while a try in flight, even a FT, does not.
Hope that helps clarify it.

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