NFHS Rules interp

[dpomeroy]

Situation #6 in the 2001 NFHS Football Rules Interpretations
letter has our crew stumped: A1's pass is intercepted by
airborne B1 who is driven out of bounds by A2. While
airborne he throws the ball backward(don't you all love how
the NFHS comes up with plays that hopefully will never
happen?) and in #1 it is caught simultaneously by A&B
OR in #2 it just falls to the ground. The NFHS says in #1
it belongs to B but in #2 it is just incomplete. Our crew
understands #1, backward pass, simultaneous catch, belongs to passing team...but #2??? Why is it incomplete and A's ball back at the previous spot?

[BktBallRef]

Just to clarify, in (a) it doesn't necessarily belong to B. "The official must determine if B would have come down inbounds without the contact by A. If he would have, the ball belongs to B, if not the ball belongs to A, as there was no change of possession."

In (b), the pass is incomplete because it was never caught. Since he never touched the ground inbounds, by definition he never caught the ball.

2-4-1
A catch is the act of establishing player possession of a live ball which is in flight, and first contacting the ground inbounds or being contacted by an opponent in such a way that he is prevented from returning to the ground inbounds while maintaining possession of the ball.

[Zeke5]

I happen to think this is a terrible interpretation by NHFS.

In #1, I believe this will always be A's ball since the airborne catch and throw (in my book) would never constitute a catch and a change of team possession. If B never threw the ball and came down out of bounds where he immediately lost possession of the ball due to the contact with the ground, I don't have a catch.

#2 I believe this is merely an incomplete pass and the ball belongs to A and it is the next down. BUT, that contradicts NHFS interpretation of #1. Using their logic in #1, there would be a change of team possession after which a backwards pass was thrown which hit the ground which would be a LIVE BALL!!


But of course, what the hell do I know? Just hope you don't ever see this and have to sell it to a coach either way.

[dpomeroy]

We understand situation #1...but answer situation #2 with
the same parameters, IE, A drives B out of bounds, the way
the NFHS words the question we assumed the conditions were
the same in both scenarios and we were to answer #1 who has
the ball in joint possesion and who has it if it just falls
to the ground.

[BktBallRef]

I hoonestly believe you fellas are making this too difficult. The rule that I quoted above covers this play completely.

In a) for the play to be considered a catch, B must being contacted by A in such a way that he is prevented from returning to the ground inbounds while maintaining possession of the ball. You simply have to determine whether or not B would have legally caught the ball if he hadn't muffed it to his teammate. In b), it's nothing more than an incomplete pass, whether it goes forward or backwards. Inbounds or OOB doesn't matter because the pass hits the ground.

[Zeke5]

The problem I see is that the "while maintaining possession of the ball" [in my mind] is meant to mean after the player has returned to the ground whether in bounds or out of bounds. I just don't think the act described in this portion of the play fit the definition of a catch, and the sideline and the contact by A has nothing to do with it.

As for #1, are you asserting that this was a muff (which I believe) and not a catch and throw (change of team possession)? If so then the result would have to be A's ball at the spot of joint possession of the catch as I stated earlier.

[dpomeroy]

In situation #1 he doesn't "muff" it , 2-26 says a muff is
touching of a loose ball by a player in an unsuccesful
attempt at possesion. Reread the NFHS question, it says,
B1 has the ball and while airborne throws it backward.
Lets assume as the NFHS tells us to in situation #1 he WOULD have landed in bounds had A not driven him OOB, so
while airborne he throws it(not muffs it) backward, 2 guys
catch it simultaneously. Thats easy, it was B's ball and
continues to be on the simultaneous catch. In situation #2
he heaves it backward to the ground. Incomplete pass...
how?? I think that is a live ball and I guees if no one
jumps on it we'll give that to B also. Read that question
again and in situation #2 have B landing inbounds in
adsence of A not driving him OOB and tellme, he heaves the
darn thing backwards to the ground while he is airborne.
What do you have?

[Zeke5]

I understand what a muff is and I think that B's control of the ball continues to be a muff until he contacts the ground with that control where he has possession of the ball and it then becomes a catch. You cannot have a change of possession on a forward pass without a catch, and therefore, in the first situation, A is still in TEAM possession when A & B jointly catch the ball. A's ball.

What happens when B jumps up to catch the ball and momentarily controls the ball, but before he hits the ground he is hit by A and drops the ball? It is an incomplete pass, not a fumble. B never caught the ball.

In the same fashion, this is why #2 is an incomplete pass.


What if in #1 B threw the ball forward, whould you have an illegal forward pass, too? I don't think so. Not unless B threw it after he made contact with the ground in bounds.

[Schmidt MJ]

This exact subject came up at our last association meeting and the concensus was the same as the Fed interpretation. However, I was one of the dissenters. I agree wholeheartedly with Zeke5 on this one. The B player did not complete the catch because he did not maintain possession until he touched the ground. The fact that he was forced out is not in question, but he still must maintain possession until he lands in or out of bounds. If he throws the ball before he lands he has lost possession, albeit voluntary, but he has still lost possession.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Zeke5
I understand what a muff is and I think that B's control of the ball continues to be a muff until he contacts the ground with that control where he has possession of the ball and it then becomes a catch. You cannot have a change of possession on a forward pass without a catch, and therefore, in the first situation, A is still in TEAM possession when A & B jointly catch the ball. A's ball.

I'm afraid that's not the NF's interpretation.

What happens when B jumps up to catch the ball and momentarily controls the ball, but before he hits the ground he is hit by A and drops the ball? It is an incomplete pass, not a fumble. B never caught the ball.

In the same fashion, this is why #2 is an incomplete pass.

Exactly!

What if in #1 B threw the ball forward, whould you have an illegal forward pass, too? I don't think so. Not unless B threw it after he made contact with the ground in bounds.

You are correct.

dpomeroy, the ball was never caught, thus not possessed. If he never had possession of it, he can't throw it, pass, or what ever term you won't to use. It's simply a muff because he never possessed the ball. It doesn't matter whether the ball goes backwards or forward. Mr. Webster may call it a pass, but we have to go by the definitions in the rulebook.

Guys, we've beat this play to death on the Mc Griff board. We've examined it over and over again. The consensus is that the NF is correct.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Sep 20th, 2001 at 10:02 PM]

[Zeke5]

Sorry BktBallRef, I feel like beating this thing up some more.

Has the concensus capitulated because the NF is always right, or believe the NF never seems to have misprints in their materials?

I just fail to see the change of possession in #1 that would give the ball to B in a joint catch. Can someone please tell me what I'm missing here?

Otherwise it appears that contradicting logic was used in arriving at the NF answers for #1 and #2.

I see only two sets of answers for this question and it all hinges on whether the NF considers B's act a catch and change of possession:

If it is a catch: #1 B's Ball #2 Fumble

If it's NOT a catch: #1 A's Ball #2 Incomplete Pass

[sportswriter]

Originally posted by dpomeroy
Situation #6 in the 2001 NFHS Football Rules Interpretations
letter has our crew stumped: A1's pass is intercepted by
airborne B1 who is driven out of bounds by A2. While
airborne he throws the ball backward(don't you all love how
the NFHS comes up with plays that hopefully will never
happen?) and in #1 it is caught simultaneously by A&B
OR in #2 it just falls to the ground. The NFHS says in #1
it belongs to B but in #2 it is just incomplete. Our crew
understands #1, backward pass, simultaneous catch, belongs to passing team...but #2??? Why is it incomplete and A's ball back at the previous spot?

Either B has posession or they don't.... what is it?
Who dreams up these things, anyhow???

Maybe there's a "last touched" provision in NHFS that I don't understand, (I'm Canadian, don't do much HS ball) but I don't see how you can have two different posession rulings - which is what you have in the above example. I see it this way: in order to effectively retain the ball and then directed it with intent in a backwards direction, you have posession. That means #2 is a fumble.