Flag or no flag?

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by Daryl H. Long

Biting my tongue I then said that the flag should be on the 5 YL to which both the R and BJ said that unsportmanlike fouls were dead ball fouls and TD stands. I corrected them and said the foul as reported by the BJ happened during a LIVE ball and that only the administration was as IF it were a dead ball foul.

It is my understanding that they were correct, at least on this part. PF's at the 5 would be administered from the 5. But USC is treated as a DBF and administered as if it were a DBF (not sure what distinction you were trying to make by saying "only the administration was as if it were a DBF". This is a correct statement, and tells you that this foul is treated as a DBF, like they did.

As to your other situations, since nothing had been signaled, I surely would have told BJ that he missed a late PF that the rest of the stadium (including you) saw - and let him act as if his flag was for both. If he didn't like that, then sure, you could drop your flag too, but I think it looks better for him to have inadvertently only thrown 1 flag for the 2 fouls (as far as everyone else's perception goes) than for you to have to drop the flag.

But in any case, I would make sure that PF got penalized, regardless of how bad it might have looked administration wise.

[Daryl H. Long]

Thanks to nitpickers:

1. A player was tackled 12 FEET into endzone not 12 yds.
2. My correction to the crew was that it was a Live ball unsporting foul not a dead ball foul. I was nitpicking a little because over ten games they continue to use incorrect terminology which grates on me. They got the administration part correct becaue all unsporting fouls are administered from the succeeding spot. Sadly, live ball unsporting fouls by the scoring team do not negate the score like other fouls would, but until the rule is changed to apply a distinction between live and dead ball fouls a team can continue to benefit from taunts DURING a down in which they score.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by Daryl H. Long

Thanks to nitpickers:

1. A player was tackled 12 FEET into endzone not 12 yds.

Well, to me that changes EVERYTHING I said before.

4 yards into the endzone is different than 2 yards BEYOND the back of the EZ. In this case, with you being way out of position to make this call, I'd be A LOT more reluctant to insist on (or flag after the fact) a PF for that tackle. For one, distance and timing are hard to judge, and it may very well be that it was not as late a hit as you thought. In the OP, 2 yards behind the back of the EZ can much more easily be flagged from 30-50 yards away than your correction.

[Forksref]

Originally Posted by Daryl H. Long

Thanks to nitpickers:

1. A player was tackled 12 FEET into endzone not 12 yds.
2. My correction to the crew was that it was a Live ball unsporting foul not a dead ball foul. I was nitpicking a little because over ten games they continue to use incorrect terminology which grates on me. They got the administration part correct becaue all unsporting fouls are administered from the succeeding spot. Sadly, live ball unsporting fouls by the scoring team do not negate the score like other fouls would, but until the rule is changed to apply a distinction between live and dead ball fouls a team can continue to benefit from taunts DURING a down in which they score.

Daryl, I would have, as mentioned above somewhere, used the BJ flag for two fouls (late hit PF and, if you can't talk him out of it, the USC). This way, you wouldn't have to throw your flag really late but still get your foul flagged. I think you have an obligation to flag late hits, regardless of where you are on the field. I was a BJ for a few years and I always cleaned up plays and sometimes had the late hit flag from quite a few yards away. Sometimes the guys closest to the play miss the stuff that happens after the play because it is out of their field of vision.


BTW - Daryl was a great runner on my junior high track team many years ago. I won't say how many.

[jjrye22]

I'm just wondering what the proscribed mechanics are.

For 5 man crews we have the LM/LJ always having the spot. So for a long pass they need to release on the pass and start running. The U turns to check short passes, but is with the R for clean up.
Even if I don't release immediately, and even being not really in shape, I'm going to cover most the distance the runner did. After 65 yards (I believe it was right?) I might not make it to the goal or 5, but the 15 would be decent to at least see things.

With a 7 man crew we still have everything up to the 3 yards line. Snap inside the 8 we take the GL directly and the FJ/SJ have the end line.

Are you told to hold the line and watch behind the play? Seems strange to me, but some other mechanics things I have read also seem strange.

James

[Rich]

Originally Posted by jjrye22

I'm just wondering what the proscribed mechanics are.

For 5 man crews we have the LM/LJ always having the spot. So for a long pass they need to release on the pass and start running. The U turns to check short passes, but is with the R for clean up.
Even if I don't release immediately, and even being not really in shape, I'm going to cover most the distance the runner did. After 65 yards (I believe it was right?) I might not make it to the goal or 5, but the 15 would be decent to at least see things.

With a 7 man crew we still have everything up to the 3 yards line. Snap inside the 8 we take the GL directly and the FJ/SJ have the end line.

Are you told to hold the line and watch behind the play? Seems strange to me, but some other mechanics things I have read also seem strange.

James

For 5 man, the BJ is expected to get a deep spot. At least where I live....

[parepat]

Where was the linesman on this play. In your discussions later, did he say that he saw the late hit?

If you ask me this taunting thing is out of hand. We are expected to discern the motives for a player's acts. (ie-did he slow down due to fatigue or to taunt) Are there other fouls where we look to the "intent" ?

[simpson]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

As to your other situations, since nothing had been signaled, I surely would have told BJ that he missed a late PF that the rest of the stadium (including you) saw - and let him act as if his flag was for both. If he didn't like that, then sure, you could drop your flag too, but I think it looks better for him to have inadvertently only thrown 1 flag for the 2 fouls (as far as everyone else's perception goes) than for you to have to drop the flag.

I agree with trying to talk the BJ into having both fouls. As for the USC, it wasn't the TE who scored. It was a receiver running free for a TD who cut across the field and slowed down at the 5 yard line. I wasn't there, but the way that sounds, it could very easily be taunting.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by simpson

I agree with trying to talk the BJ into having both fouls. As for the USC, it wasn't the TE who scored. It was a receiver running free for a TD who cut across the field and slowed down at the 5 yard line. I wasn't there, but the way that sounds, it could very easily be taunting.

TE, WR, whatever - he's still a kid at the end of a 70 yard run. Not completely out of the question that he was merely slowing. I would have to see some other evidence of taunting than merely slowing and then realizing you might get caught and speeding back up. Kind of a flimsy taunt, don't you think?

[simpson]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

TE, WR, whatever - he's still a kid at the end of a 70 yard run. Not completely out of the question that he was merely slowing. I would have to see some other evidence of taunting than merely slowing and then realizing you might get caught and speeding back up. Kind of a flimsy taunt, don't you think?

I guess it's a "you had to be there type of thing." I'm just trying to run the image through my mind. If you have a guy slow down/jog and run toward the middle of the field/maybe even come close to stopping/looking back at the defender only to burst full speed into the end zone when he gets close, I probably have a USC.

If the kid is winded and clearly just losing steam - I got nothing. The reason I think the kid did more than just slow down because he was tired is because he a)cut across the middle of the field as he slowed down, and b) had enough energy to burst through the endzone when the defender got close. Obviously, it's a judgement call that we can't make from a typed 2nd-hand description.

[jontheref]

This whole situation can be avoided if the official is not so geared to report the foul and continue officiating the entire play. Thats why we see so many NFL officials and College officials turning their backs on the field and following the players. If this was done you may have an entirely different situation.

The other thing is this...in this particular situation dont you have a live ball foul treated as a deadball. Score the touchdown and administer the USC on the try? And, if you have the take down after the touchdown...after going back to the 18 ... you now go half the distance.

As far as do you throw the flag from 40 yards away...I tell my guys if you see it...and it is critical....throw it.