Is it a safety if B declines penalty?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Bob M.

REPLY: Indy_Stu...let's give this one more try: The rule which governs placement of the ball for the next down says:
"If the pass is legal, the passing team next snaps the ball at the previous spot, unless lost after fourth down." There should be no problems here.

Now, if your question was intended to ask "Why doesn't the Federation have a rule like the NCAA's which would allow the ball to be placed at the previous spot?" then there's merit to the question. And it needs to be directed to the Federation Rules Committee for consideration through your state committee member, Mr. Cox.

But if your question is indeed "Why can't B decline (the) penalty and take results of play, in this case an incomplete pass," asked in the context of the current Federation rules, then it's simply without merit. The rules are very clear that the ball is placed at the spot of the end of the run. Hence, safety regardless of whether the penalty is accepted or not.

Not to pile on, but it's simply not seen as an incomplete pass. It's a run that ended. Toss your beanbag, cause you're going to need the spot.

[MD Longhorn]

Wait a minute...

Are you saying that in FED that B cannot decline Intentional Grounding and accept the result of the play? What if the result of the intentional grounding was actually an intercepted pass, returned for a TD by B? In Fed, did the pass in essence never occur?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Wait a minute...

Are you saying that in FED that B cannot decline Intentional Grounding and accept the result of the play? What if the result of the intentional grounding was actually an intercepted pass, returned for a TD by B? In Fed, did the pass in essence never occur?

Of course they can take the result of the play. The result of the play in FED is the ball is spotted at the end of the related run prior to the illegal pass. Safety.

[MD Longhorn]

So in Fed, if a QB was about to get sacked, and just winged it to his left, where no receivers were, and this pass was caught by B, you nullify the interception merely because there were no A receivers in the area?

Not complaining, just trying to clarify this, since I don't work FED.

[Indy_Stu]

Thanks to all who courteously and unassumingly posted, to clarify this IFP situation to me:
waltjp
kdf5
HawkeyeCubP
whitehat52
JasonTX
Bob M.

Bob M. post at 10:51 helped seal the deal for me. I do not know NCAA rules as I only do HS football. This would be one situation (IFP from own end zone) that IMO would be good to unify the codes. I would like to see B have options, like they do on other enforcements.

Maybe I will direct this to Mr. B. Cox - - the next time we play golf!

[kdf5]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

So in Fed, if a QB was about to get sacked, and just winged it to his left, where no receivers were, and this pass was caught by B, you nullify the interception merely because there were no A receivers in the area?

Not complaining, just trying to clarify this, since I don't work FED.

In Fed it depends on where the pass was thrown from and whether it was completed or not. An incomplete illegal forward pass is a running play, not a passing play. A completed IFP is a completed pass but still a running play for enforcement.

An incomplete illegal forward pass thrown from in the EZ will be a safety since it's by rule (don't have books, can't cite rule number) a safety. Declined, it's a safety because the run ended in the EZ. An incomplete IFP from the field of play is treated the same - as a run. A completed IFP is simply a completed pass. Penalties out in the field of play are enforced using basic ABO enforcement.

Say, for example, that A throws a long illegal forward pass downfield from the A 45 and it was 4th and 10. B intercepts and is tackled on the B 20. B would accept the IFP which would give B the ball on the A 40 1/10 rather than keep the INT because the IFP has loss of down provisions and is enforced from the end of the run which is the A 45. I hope I didn't muddy this too bad.

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

So in Fed, if a QB was about to get sacked, and just winged it to his left, where no receivers were, and this pass was caught by B, you nullify the interception merely because there were no A receivers in the area?

Not complaining, just trying to clarify this, since I don't work FED.

REPLY: No mcrowder...of course B can take the result of the play. And if they intercept the pass and take it to the house, good for them. But...if the pass is incomplete, the result of the play leaves the ball at the spot of the pass (safety). It cannot be placed at the previous spot like it would be for a legal forward pass. That seems to be what had Indy_Stu confused.

[Indy_Stu]

Originally Posted by Bob M.

REPLY: No mcrowder...of course B can take the result of the play. And if they intercept the pass and take it to the house, good for them. But...if the pass is incomplete, the result of the play leaves the ball at the spot of the pass (safety). It cannot be placed at the previous spot like it would be for a legal forward pass. That seems to be what had Indy_Stu confused.

That is precisely what had me confused - - only a LEGAL forward pass is returned to the previous spot upon an incompletion.

IFP from end zone, when pass is incomplete, the basic spot for any subsequent action (next down if declined, enforcement if accepted) is the end of the run. Result will be a safety.

Bob M. thanks again for your professional and courteous replies/posts.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

So in Fed, if a QB was about to get sacked, and just winged it to his left, where no receivers were, and this pass was caught by B, you nullify the interception merely because there were no A receivers in the area?

Not complaining, just trying to clarify this, since I don't work FED.

Bob,

You made the same error that I did. The poster you responded to was not mcrowder. It's mbcrowder. Had me confused at first glance too.

[mcrowder]

An imposter?!??!!

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

An imposter?!??!!

Take it as a sign of flattery!

[Bob M.]

REPLY: waltjp..thenaks for straightening me out...or is it waltpj??

[waltjp]

I've been called worse, Bob.

[sloth]

Stu-

I think the rule book ref. you want is 7-5-3..."if the penalty for an illegal forward pass is accepted, measurement is from the spot of such forward pass. If the offended team declines the distance penalty, it has the choice of having the down counted at the spot of the illegal incomplete forward pass or (if the illegal forward pass is caught or intercepted) of having the ball in play as determined by the action which follwed the catch."

7-5-2 c&d define intentional grounding as an illegal forward pass.