12 men breaking the huddle

gtwbam · #1 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 04, 2006, 06:25am

It's 4th and 1 from the 50 yard line, When Team A breaks the huddle with 12 men. Prior to Team A getting in their punt formation the coach yells for the 12th man to run off the field. He does. As an added note their was no intent by Team A to deceive, just confusion on their part.
Interested in everyone's interpretation if this is an illegal substitution or not?

TXMike · #2 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 04, 2006, 07:35am

It is in NCAA rules.

The Roamin' Umpire · #3 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 04, 2006, 07:37am

Not in NFHS. See these threads:

Breaking the Huddle w/12???

12 men in the huddle

sm_bbcoach · #4 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 04, 2006, 08:08am

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtwbam

It's 4th and 1 from the 50 yard line, When Team A breaks the huddle with 12 men. Prior to Team A getting in their punt formation the coach yells for the 12th man to run off the field. He does. As an added note their was no intent by Team A to deceive, just confusion on their part.
Interested in everyone's interpretation if this is an illegal substitution or not?

Had this situation last week and here is how did it. A had ball, 3rd and 8. Kid comes in. As WH, I get to stand near huddle. He says "Malcome get out". No one leaves. Qb then says, "Malcome, Get your A$$ out a here" . Coach begins yelling "Malcome get out" Finally as the huddle is breaking, (10 on play clock) Malcome runs off the field. Opposing coach raises all kinds of junk during the play. I go over, retell the story. It is not in the rule book. The rule states 3-7-1 "Between downs, any number of eligable subs may replace players. replaced players shall leave the field immediately."

There was no deception, just Malcome not getting off the field. The way my crew deals with this is, I can monitor if it is a mistake. 1st time, let it go. 2nd time, tell coach to figure it out. 3rd time, flags away. Now, if this is late int he season or playoffs, this is enough of a season for them to know, I am more inclined to not allow it at all. Deception in our collective minds is when the team intentionally does this or when a team comes to the LOS and sees an extra player somewhere on the field.

We have had very little issues by using it this way.

BktBallRef · #5 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 04, 2006, 09:38am

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtwbam

It's 4th and 1 from the 50 yard line, When Team A breaks the huddle with 12 men. Prior to Team A getting in their punt formation the coach yells for the 12th man to run off the field. He does. As an added note their was no intent by Team A to deceive, just confusion on their part.
Interested in everyone's interpretation if this is an illegal substitution or not?

When did the sub enter the field/huddle?

If he'd been in the huddle for 10 seconds and the replaced player didn't leave, then a flag should have flown before they even broke. Breaking with 12 is not the issue.

andy1033 · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 04, 2006, 11:02am

Flag. Defense does not know who to cover.

What happens when other team has same problem and you are not close enough to hear it.

Theisey · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 04, 2006, 11:44am

I'm now beginning to see why question #6 on the part II test was there.
#6: An official's personal opinion about the value of a rule is not to have an effect on the enforcement of the rule.

As described, this is a foul that needs to be called. By not doing so, you just maybe put the screws to the next crew who does make this call.

RonRef · #8 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 05, 2006, 07:27am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theisey

I'm now beginning to see why question #6 on the part II test was there.
#6: An official's personal opinion about the value of a rule is not to have an effect on the enforcement of the rule.

As described, this is a foul that needs to be called. By not doing so, you just maybe put the screws to the next crew who does make this call.

I am also going to flag this, the offensive is trying to pull a fast one on the defense, and in my opinon that is a foul in HS.

mcrowder · #9 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 05, 2006, 02:53pm

Not necessarily. Nothing in the OP indicates that the 12th player was in the huddle an inordinate amount of time. This is clearly a foul in NCAA, but there is not a FED rule that says breaking the huddle with 12 is illegal.

What IS illegal is the sub not coming off "immediately". There IS judgement that comes into play when deciding what "immediately" means, and if there is no A) intent to deceive or B) actual deception (even if unintentional), you have no reason to flag this other than showing that your are an OOO.

kd0254 · #10 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 05, 2006, 11:41pm

I would give 3-5 seconds (my interpretation of immeadiatly) for the substitute to leave, otherwise it would draw a flag from me.

mcrowder · #11 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 06, 2006, 08:37am

Quote:

Originally Posted by kd0254

I would give 3-5 seconds (my interpretation of immeadiatly) for the substitute to leave, otherwise it would draw a flag from me.

Works for me... but the OP doesn't say one way or another, and everyone is assuming that the extra player was out for more than that. I'm just saying we can't assume, and it is important to know (in FED) that the penalty is NOT for "breaking the huddle with 12", even though coaches will yell for exactly that, but rather for the sub not coming off "immediately".

Warrenkicker · #12 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 06, 2006, 09:00am

Something related to this happened this last Friday. The team on the other sideline is lined up for a scrimmage kick. They realize that they only have 10 players out there and run a wing back in late and he easily gets set in time for the snap. I have some coach going nuts behind me yelling that they broke the huddle with 10.

I calmly tell him that isn't a rule.

He then says that it should be.

Oh, if we let the inmates run the assylum.

RonRef · #13 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 06, 2006, 10:07am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warrenkicker

Something related to this happened this last Friday. The team on the other sideline is lined up for a scrimmage kick. They realize that they only have 10 players out there and run a wing back in late and he easily gets set in time for the snap. I have some coach going nuts behind me yelling that they broke the huddle with 10.

I calmly tell him that isn't a rule.

He then says that it should be.

Oh, if we let the inmates run the assylum.

This is what you get when you let 14 coaches on the field for the varsity game on Friday night!

FootballRef05 · #14 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 06, 2006, 11:17am

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtwbam

It's 4th and 1 from the 50 yard line, When Team A breaks the huddle with 12 men. Prior to Team A getting in their punt formation the coach yells for the 12th man to run off the field. He does. As an added note their was no intent by Team A to deceive, just confusion on their part.
Interested in everyone's interpretation if this is an illegal substitution or not?

Flag it. The replaced played did not immediately leave the field of play. Breaking the huddle with 12 has bearing and is not a HS rule.

Warrenkicker · #15 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 06, 2006, 12:04pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by RonRef

This is what you get when you let 14 coaches on the field for the varsity game on Friday night!

14??? I think it was closer to 20!!!!

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
30 Sec Time out huddle	dhanders	Basketball	2	Sun Nov 20, 2005 12:20pm
Breaking the Huddle w/12???	BoBo	Football	6	Sat Nov 06, 2004 12:55am
12 men in the huddle	dallas	Football	15	Mon Sep 27, 2004 02:04pm
1:00 Huddle	coachgrd	Basketball	9	Fri Dec 19, 2003 07:54pm
13 men in the huddle	lawref	Football	3	Sun Nov 02, 2003 11:04pm