Just for kicks

[PSU213]

There are really two questions here that I see:

1. Was the ball dead and pass incomplete when it hit the jumping B73? If you go the techinical, letter-of-the-law approach, the answer is no (2-28-3) since B73 was not really OOB since he was not touching the ground, and he does not have to "establish" himself inbound to no longer be OOB. Now I would have to go with the spirit of the rules on this one and say this pass is incomplete when B73 touches it since this is really outside the scope of what you expect to see in football and outside the scope of fairness.

2. If, however, you rule the ball not to be dead, this leads to the second question:is B73 guilty of a foul? I've gone all over the rule book on this one (defintion of substitute, definition of participation, illegal participation in rule 9). I really cannot find anything that clearly defines this as a foul. Which would lead me back to my opinion on #1--the ball is dead when it hits the player (who is at least 2 yards) OOB.

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by PSU213

... illegal participation in rule 9). I really cannot find anything that clearly defines this as a foul. Which would lead me back to my opinion on #1--the ball is dead when it hits the player (who is at least 2 yards) OOB.

9-6-3 "No replaced player or substitute shall hinder an opponent, touch the ball, influence the play or otherwise participate."

He meets the definition of a substitute (2-31-15), and he meets this requirement of illegal participation.

But as I said, unless he's using a trampoline or being tossed by the cheer squad when it hits him, I'm ruling incomplete.

[PSU213]

Originally Posted by HawkeyeCubP

9-6-3 "No replaced player or substitute shall hinder an opponent, touch the ball, influence the play or otherwise participate."

He meets the definition of a substitute (2-31-15), and he meets this requirement of illegal participation.

Does he really meet the definition of a substitute? I can break down 2-31-15 two different ways (I am leaving parts of the rule out, and how it is interpreted depends on how one reads the rule as a whole):

First would be "a substitute becomes a player when he enters the field and...participates in the play." In which case he would not qualify as a sub in this play since he never did enter the field.

The other way would be "a substitute becomes a player when...he participates in the play." Here the B player is a sub since he cleary has an influence on the play.

The bottom line is that we will save ourselves a whole world of confusion and trouble if we just rule the pass incomplete. Now, I'm not an advocate of making a particular call just to "save trouble," but here I really doubt anyone will do a bunch of complaining if you kill it when the jumping team member deflects the ball.

[iceman70]

I think that the NCAA version is simpler and this play wouldn't be an issue:

4-2-3-a A ball not in player possession, other than a kick that scores a field goal, is out of bounds when it touches the ground, a player, a game official, or anything else that is on or outside a boundary line.

B73 is clearly outside of the boundary line whether he is standing or jumping in the air.

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by iceman70

I think that the NCAA version is simpler and this play wouldn't be an issue:

4-2-3-a A ball not in player possession, other than a kick that scores a field goal, is out of bounds when it touches the ground, a player, a game official, or anything else that is on or outside a boundary line.

B73 is clearly outside of the boundary line whether he is standing or jumping in the air.

And the NCAA shall set you free!!! Would someone copy and paste this little morsel of logic and send it to NFHS now?

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by PSU213

Does he really meet the definition of a substitute? I can break down 2-31-15 two different ways (I am leaving parts of the rule out, and how it is interpreted depends on how one reads the rule as a whole):

First would be "a substitute becomes a player when he enters the field and...participates in the play." In which case he would not qualify as a sub in this play since he never did enter the field.

The definition is saying that he is a substitute whose status is changed to a player "when he enters the field..." (He's not becoming a substitute by entering the field - he's a substitute who's becoming a player by entering the field, etc.)

[NickelDeuce]

Incomplete Pass.