another kick play

[MJT]

4-4 on R's 13 with a FG attempt from 20 yard line. R80 comes off the corner to try to block the kick but does not have an angle to block it even though he is there in plenty of time. Instead he kicks it while it is being held by K8 before the kicker can kick it. The ball ends up bounding back to K's 35 where R80 picks it up and runs for a TD.

[DJ_NV]

NF:
This is an illegal kick (9-7-1) as it is not a free or scrimmage kick as defined in 2-23-3,4. Interestingly, this foul occurred during a running play as defined in 10-3-2, not loose ball play as the foul did not occur "during" any of the action defined in 10-3-1. Therefore, the holder is technically a runner as defined in 2-31-13 because he is in possession of a live ball even though his knee is on the ground (4-2-2-Exc. 1). The foul occurred during a running play, with the end of the "run" being the spot where the ball was kicked. Assuming that spot is inside the 30, which it probably is being that the ball was snapped at the R-20, then we'll go 1/2 the distance from the spot of the illegal kick (end of the run) and repeat the down.
Note that if a foul occurs during the interval 'after' the ball is illegally kicked, then it is occurring during loose-ball play and the snap, hold, and illegal kick are all wrapped up into one loose-ball play until the ball becomes dead or a running play starts.

NCAA: Similar to NF (see NCAA 9-4-4) and the illegal kick is still during a running play, however the basic spot is not the end of the run for fouls occurring behind the NZ but rather the PS (2-25-10-b). Penalize B 1/2 distance from the B-20. Note that this is not an auto. 1st down

[MJT]

I have added down and distance.

[The Roamin' Umpire]

Originally Posted by MJT

4-4 on R's 13 with a FG attempt from 20 yard line. R80 comes off the corner to try to block the kick but does not have an angle to block it even though he is there in plenty of time. Instead he kicks it while it is being held by K8 before the kicker can kick it. The ball ends up bounding back to K's 35 where R80 picks it up and runs for a TD.

NFHS: Illegal kick, enforced from the end of the run. It'll be 4/1 @ R10. And if the guy was there in time, why didn't he just tackle the bleedin' holder?

[MJT]

But the discussion turned on another board. What kind of play do we have? It appears to be a running play, but a IKick is treated as a fumble, and it was behind the LOS, so what kind of play do you have for penalty enforcement?

[DJ_NV]

My vote is a running play. I agree that any foul that occurs *during* an illegal kick behind the NZ is part of the loose-ball play, but that's not the case here. If you go down the list of loose-ball play action in 10-3-1 with the word "during" in mind, nothing fits in this case.

10-3-1-a: Did the foul occur during free kick or scrimmage kick action? no
10-3-1-b: Did the foul occur during a legal forward pass? no
10-3-1-c: Did the foul occur during a backward pass (including the snap)? no, because the snap by definition (2-39-3) ended as soon as it was touched and the backward pass ended as soon as it was caught (2-30-6).
Did it occur during an illegal kick or fumble by team A behind the NZ before a COP? no, because the ball was in player possession (2-33-1) when the foul occurred.
Therefore because we don't meet any of the requirements of 10-3-1, it must be a running play per 10-3-2.

Now one thing that is worth looking at is the "Note" statement of 10-3-1 which states: "The run(s) which precedes such legal or illegal kick, legal forward pass, backward pass or fumble is (are) considered part of the action during loose-ball play."
The key here is back in 10-3-1-c with the statement "...made by A...:
Therefore, even though we have a "run" (and by 'run' I mean the player possession consisting of holding the ball on the ground on a tee), it is only if A commits the illegal kick that this "run" gets rolled up into a one and only loose-ball play. Because B was the one who kicked it, we still don't meet the requirements of loose-ball play in 10-3-1-c and therefore we have a running play.
Another way to look at this is that Team A is responsible for the ball being back 7 yards by virtue of the snap. Team B did not cause the ball to be back there in the first place. This is similar to a QB who scrambles and is tackled for a 7-yard loss and B is called for a 5-yard facemask. We're going to tack the 5-yards onto the end of the run. Even though Team A repeats the down, it's still a 2-yard net loss.
Now I understand that in this situation, the run in this example is not followed by a loose ball, but that's covered by the language explained above. In fact, in this case Team A would be wise to fumble the ball in that they would change the BS to the PS by doing so. (NCAA has this covered without having to do something like that as all runs that end behind the NZ have a BS of the PS under the 3-and-1)

[MJT]

10-3-1-c says loose ball play for "a fumble made by A from in or behind the NZ and prior to COP." This is a loose ball play, just as if A fumbled on a FM by B behind the NZ. It would not be enforced from the end of the run, but from the PSpot.

[DJ_NV]

The question that needs to be asked is: When did the foul occur?
One line of thinking is that it (the illegal kick) occurred while the ball was in player possession and therefore did not meet the requirements of anything listed in 10-3-1.
Now after reading your last post, I'm inclined to rethink the situation back toward a loose-ball play because an illegal kick is treated as a fumble. And by definition, even though B illegally kicked the ball, what we have here is a fumble by A because per 2-18, it was "a loss of player possession other than by handing, passing, or legal kick.Therefore, you're right, this is technically a fumble by A behind the NZ before a COP and so meets the requirements of 10-3-1-c. This is reinforced by 2-23-9 that states that an illegal kick is treated as a fumble.
Penalize from the BS which is the PS.

[Jim D]

All illegal kicks are fumbles. We have a fumble by A (they are still in possession so it can't be a fumble by B) behind the line so it is a loose ball play.

[MJT]

And now, I think we have it!

[The Roamin' Umpire]

Oops! Got caught out on this one. It is a loose ball play after all. (But my question still applies. :P)

[MJT]

Originally Posted by The Roamin' Umpire

Oops! Got caught out on this one. It is a loose ball play after all. (But my question still applies. :P)

Does anyone really have a clue what is going thru this HS kids minds sometimes. I teach them and I have no idea what they are thinking with some of the answers they come up with on assignments, let alone what they are thinking when they are on the field.

[Texas Aggie]

NCAA: illegal kick. 15 yards, though the loss of down provision doesn't apply here. First and goal from about the 7 and a half. Possible ejection, but I might need to find more support for that.