roughing the kicker

[golfdesigner]

we had a discussion at association meeting the other night...
Play..
K1 is in scrimmage-kick formation, ball is snapped R1 rushes kicker from left side, R2 rushes kicker from right side.

R1 barely tips/blocks kick - not enough to really adversely affect kick, but does get a hand on ball as it leaves kicker's foot - R1 misses kicker - K1 is just finishing his kicking motion

R2 a step or two behind R1 lays out K1 while K1's kicking leg is still coming down to the ground, K1 has not yet regained his balance.

One side said - no foul, the tipped/touched ball takes off any roughing the kicker, the tip made K1 fair game.

Other side said - tipped ball does not make K1 fair game. R2 must still avoid contact. Since R2 did not and probably could have avoided contact draws yellow rain, for roughing the kicker, 15-yards automatic first down.

Any opinions, and rule references, welcomed.

My opinion, I'm with other side.

[JugglingReferee]

The Canadian philosophy says that the only way a defender is relieved of his responsibility of avoiding the kicker is if that defender touches the ball after if it kicked. (There is no kick until the ball is kicked.)

R1 could legally contact the kicker. R2 may not. This sounds like contacting the kicker, rather than roughing the kicker, but as always HTBT always helps.

Contacting the kicker: 10y PLS, DR.
Roughging the kicker: 15y PLS, AFD, 1D/10 or 15y PP or 15 PBD.

[whitehat52]

Read the comment in the casebook after 9.4.5. I am not going to retype the whole comment but one sentence in the comment says: "Touching the kicked ball is, in itself, not a license to charge the kicker/holder." If a defensive player is able to avoid contact, then he must avoid the contact or be subject to a running into or roughing call. I am in the camp that this is a penalty. Touching the ball does not give the defense a free shot at the kicker.

[RoyGardner]

Under NCAA rules the only player(s) who get to hit the kicker and/or holder on a play like this are the player(s) who actually block the kick. Even then if the hit is deemed excessive and not part of the actual kick block motion then we can use our judgement and flag anyway.

Under no circumstances can a player who did not actually touch the kick during the kick block then hit/rough the kicker and/or holder. The rule is very clear on this point.

[MJT]

Originally Posted by golfdesigner

we had a discussion at association meeting the other night...
Play..
K1 is in scrimmage-kick formation, ball is snapped R1 rushes kicker from left side, R2 rushes kicker from right side.

R1 barely tips/blocks kick - not enough to really adversely affect kick, but does get a hand on ball as it leaves kicker's foot - R1 misses kicker - K1 is just finishing his kicking motion

R2 a step or two behind R1 lays out K1 while K1's kicking leg is still coming down to the ground, K1 has not yet regained his balance.

One side said - no foul, the tipped/touched ball takes off any roughing the kicker, the tip made K1 fair game.

Other side said - tipped ball does not make K1 fair game. R2 must still avoid contact. Since R2 did not and probably could have avoided contact draws yellow rain, for roughing the kicker, 15-yards automatic first down.

Any opinions, and rule references, welcomed.

My opinion, I'm with other side.

That may be the same group of officials who seem to think that if the snap hits the ground you cannot have RTK. I am unsure why they feel that it correct either but I know of some who think that.

[wisref2]

Referee Magazine, August 06, page 19, Caseplays..........

"Touching the kicked ball is, in itself, not license to contact the kicker. If the player who contacts the kicker is not the player who touched the kick, there is a difference. In NFHS, the contact may be excused. In NCAA, the contact is a foul."