Snap fumbled by holder

[kentref]

Originally Posted by AndrewMcCarthy

Actually it's in the title of the thread. Duh.

My apologies. I shouldn't have titled the thread as I did, using "snap" and "fumbled" in close proximity.

To clarify,... the snap was good, and the ball was in the possession of the holder. He fumbled it as he was attempting to place it for the kick.

My take is that the ball is dead when he returns to his knee.

[Warrenkicker]

You have it right.

However in that very short amount of time between catching a snap and placing it for a hold it would be very hard to fumble it. I'm not saying it can't be done especially at the high school level but that it would be rare. A holder may lose possession of the ball while placing it on the ground but then it wouldn't roll far away. However now he has lost his exception and while trying to pick the ball up he had better get that knee off of the ground before he grabs the ball or the play is over.

[kentref]

Originally Posted by Warrenkicker

You have it right.

However in that very short amount of time between catching a snap and placing it for a hold it would be very hard to fumble it. I'm not saying it can't be done especially at the high school level but that it would be rare. A holder may lose possession of the ball while placing it on the ground but then it wouldn't roll far away. However now he has lost his exception and while trying to pick the ball up he had better get that knee off of the ground before he grabs the ball or the play is over.

I agree with you re the "short amount of time." Let's change the play so that now the snap is still good, but this time the holder clearly muffs the ball. He (a) rises and retrieves the ball, grounds his knee again and places the ball for the kick, or (b) keeps his knee grounded and retrieves the ball and places the ball for the kick.

Ruling in (a) and (b)?

[Warrenkicker]

Your use of the term muff makes it legal in both (a) and (b). Muff means that it is still a snap and the holder has the exception when he gains possession of the snap.

[wisref2]

Good discussion. I ignored the muff fumble issue in my first post in order to answer the actual question!

It seems to me that it would be really hard to determine a muff vs. a fumble in this situation. Due to the quickness of the action during a kick, I'm probably going to rule it a muff every time unless it's a really unusual situation. If he drops it anytime between it touching his hands and his placing the ball, it's hard to rule that he actually had possession long enough to make it a fumble - so give him the benefit of the doubt. Just like the rule concerning his knee - he's not down if his knee touches the ground, but what if he shin is also touching the ground, which it probably is!

[Warrenkicker]

"Coach, I couldn't see from my angle that his shin was also on the ground. Sorry."