Snap fumbled by holder

[AndrewMcCarthy]

Originally Posted by kentref

Holder K1 is in position with one knee on the ground to receive the long snap. K2 is in position to kick. The snap is good but K1 fumbles the ball while his knee is still on the ground. K1 rises to recover the ball and immediately drops to a knee to hold the ball for K2's kick. K2's kick is successful.

Ruling?

You have to be more careful in your terminology. Is it even possible to FUMBLE a SNAP based on the rulebook definitions?

[johnupchurch]

Originally Posted by AndrewMcCarthy

You have to be more careful in your terminology. Is it even possible to FUMBLE a SNAP based on the rulebook definitions?

He didn't say he fumbled the snap. He said the snap was good. Then he fumbled the ball. You, sir, must be more careful in your observations.

[AndrewMcCarthy]

Originally Posted by johnupchurch

He didn't say he fumbled the snap. He said the snap was good. Then he fumbled the ball. You, sir, must be more careful in your observations.

Sorry, Pal. I should have quoted post #5.

Warrenkicker has it right on.

[AndrewMcCarthy]

Originally Posted by johnupchurch

He didn't say he fumbled the snap. He said the snap was good. Then he fumbled the ball. You, sir, must be more careful in your observations.

Actually it's in the title of the thread. Duh.

[kentref]

Originally Posted by AndrewMcCarthy

Actually it's in the title of the thread. Duh.

My apologies. I shouldn't have titled the thread as I did, using "snap" and "fumbled" in close proximity.

To clarify,... the snap was good, and the ball was in the possession of the holder. He fumbled it as he was attempting to place it for the kick.

My take is that the ball is dead when he returns to his knee.

[Warrenkicker]

You have it right.

However in that very short amount of time between catching a snap and placing it for a hold it would be very hard to fumble it. I'm not saying it can't be done especially at the high school level but that it would be rare. A holder may lose possession of the ball while placing it on the ground but then it wouldn't roll far away. However now he has lost his exception and while trying to pick the ball up he had better get that knee off of the ground before he grabs the ball or the play is over.

[kentref]

Originally Posted by Warrenkicker

You have it right.

However in that very short amount of time between catching a snap and placing it for a hold it would be very hard to fumble it. I'm not saying it can't be done especially at the high school level but that it would be rare. A holder may lose possession of the ball while placing it on the ground but then it wouldn't roll far away. However now he has lost his exception and while trying to pick the ball up he had better get that knee off of the ground before he grabs the ball or the play is over.

I agree with you re the "short amount of time." Let's change the play so that now the snap is still good, but this time the holder clearly muffs the ball. He (a) rises and retrieves the ball, grounds his knee again and places the ball for the kick, or (b) keeps his knee grounded and retrieves the ball and places the ball for the kick.

Ruling in (a) and (b)?

[Warrenkicker]

Your use of the term muff makes it legal in both (a) and (b). Muff means that it is still a snap and the holder has the exception when he gains possession of the snap.