Mandatory Safety?

[ljudge]

I was reading up on force / safety / touchback over the weekend and thought of a scenario that I want to run by everyone.

Note - I realize the situation calls for the team A coach to take an intentional safety but let's say it didn't happen (just to clarify this rule).

Play:

A's ball 4th and 10 on their own 2 with :07 left in the game leading by 6 points. Punter K34 muffs the snap close to the endline and throws an illegal forward pass from his endzone. (edit: which falls incomplete) :02 remains on the clock after the play.

Team B would obviously want to decline the penalty and have the ball 1st and G at the 2 for the final play. But they can't do this. Whether team B accepts or declines the penalty they have no option but to take the safety (as per rule 7-5-3) because declining the foul team B would have to take the ball from the end of the run which is in the endzone, hence a safety. Now he's down by 4 and has only 2 seconds to score a TD from a free kick which would be somewhere around a 50-yard return for a TD....a much longer shot.

I say team B has to accept a safety against A even though they won't want to.

Agree or Disagree?

Originally Posted by ljudge

I was reading up on force / safety / touchback over the weekend and thought of a scenario that I want to run by everyone.

Note - I realize the situation calls for the team A coach to take an intentional safety but let's say it didn't happen (just to clarify this rule).

Play:

A's ball 4th and 10 on their own 2 with :07 left in the game leading by 6 points. Punter K34 muffs the snap close to the endline and throws an illegal forward pass from his endzone. :02 remains on the clock after the play.

Team B would obviously want to decline the penalty and have the ball 1st and G at the 2 for the final play. But they can't do this. Whether team B accepts or declines the penalty they have no option but to take the safety (as per rule 7-5-3) because declining the foul team B would have to take the ball from the end of the run which is in the endzone, hence a safety. Now he's down by 4 and has only 2 seconds to score a TD from a free kick which would be somewhere around a 50-yard return for a TD....a much longer shot.

I say team B has to accept a safety against A even though they won't want to.

Agree or Disagree?

Agree 1oo% because either way it is a safety.

[TXMike]

NCAA rules provide an exception which permits the play to be handled as an incomplete pass.

[Jim D]

I only disagree in your choice of words. The coach is not "accepting" a saftey - the results of the play is a saftey and that's that. No options for B.

Originally Posted by Jim D

I only disagree in your choice of words. The coach is not "accepting" a saftey - the results of the play is a saftey and that's that. No options for B.

yes either way it's a safety....you're right no accepting about it...LOL

[kentref]

Safety. No other possibilities.

[VaHoops]

Jim-

Not to be too technical about it--since the outcome is inevitably a safety--but the result of the play is an incomplete pass. The presence of a penalty flag on the field doesn't change that. Once you get into exploring the penalty, then the safety becomes the unavoidable result, as we learn from NFHS 7-5-3.

A minor difference, but imprtant in the sense that if the "result of the play" were a safety, then the appropriate covering officials would be required to give the signal for a safety at the conclusion of the play. With the potential for other things to be going on during a play like this, that could cause problems for a crew.

But you're right that the coach doesn't have any options here!

Originally Posted by VaHoops

Jim-

Not to be too technical about it--since the outcome is inevitably a safety--but the result of the play is an incomplete pass. The presence of a penalty flag on the field doesn't change that. Once you get into exploring the penalty, then the safety becomes the unavoidable result, as we learn from NFHS 7-5-3.

A minor difference, but imprtant in the sense that if the "result of the play" were a safety, then the appropriate covering officials would be required to give the signal for a safety at the conclusion of the play. With the potential for other things to be going on during a play like this, that could cause problems for a crew.

But you're right that the coach doesn't have any options here!

By stating it that way you are being very technical about it (technically right). But the incompelete pass has no bearing once you flag this play. They can't decline the penalty and get a first down on the A 2 yd line...

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by VaHoops

Jim-

Not to be too technical about it--since the outcome is inevitably a safety--but the result of the play is an incomplete pass. The presence of a penalty flag on the field doesn't change that. Once you get into exploring the penalty, then the safety becomes the unavoidable result, as we learn from NFHS 7-5-3.

A minor difference, but imprtant in the sense that if the "result of the play" were a safety, then the appropriate covering officials would be required to give the signal for a safety at the conclusion of the play. With the potential for other things to be going on during a play like this, that could cause problems for a crew.

But you're right that the coach doesn't have any options here!

You're correct, and the R will signal a safety when he signals the penalty.

Getting back to the fact that this play will result in a safety whether the penalty is accepted or not the only difference I can see would be in the game stats.

[Hoosier_Dave]

Keep in mind too, that when a team declines a penalty they are only declining the distance/LOD enforcement. The play occurred, so the results of the play stand. Safety.

Stupid question, how could a kicker throw an illegal pass in the end zone? The only thing that comes to mind is a double pass

[Bob M.]

REPLY: Hoosier Dave...you're right that a kicker cannot throw a pass, since in order to be a kicker, he needs to put his foot to the ball. However, a punter (not a defined term) can throw a pass if I presume that by "punter" I mean an offensive player in position to execute a scrimmage kick. The original post used the term "punter." I'm guessing that's what ljudge was presuming as well.