Clock after scrimmage kick

ljudge · #1 (**permalink**) Sun Nov 06, 2005, 09:06am

We just had a rather lengthy thread on this one but I forget what it was called. I told a couple of officials I'd post this and to look for answers from some of you.

A's ball on B's 40, 4th and 10. A decides to punt. Team B with a massive (late) substitution has 13 playes on the field at the snap. There was a legal scrimmage kick on the play. Team B (R) ends up with the ball at his own 15.

The foul, options, and clock status on each?

irefky · #2 (**permalink**) Sun Nov 06, 2005, 11:12am

IP on B, 1st and 10 for A on B's 25.

clock will run if it was running during the snap.

There's not a PSK due to foul was at snap and not the kick, correct?

Theisey · #3 (**permalink**) Sun Nov 06, 2005, 06:05pm

Status of the clock before the snap is not relevant.

NF: Start the clock on the SNAP because per rule, either team was awarded a new series following a legal kick.

NCAA: Start it on the snap no matter what.

Definitely not a PSK foul as the foul as pointed out was a foul at the snap. This one might have been a good one to shut down unless players 12 and 13 were actually leaving the field at the snap.

dumbref · #4 (**permalink**) Sun Nov 06, 2005, 06:38pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Theisey
Status of the clock before the snap is not relevant.

NF: Start the clock on the SNAP because per rule, either team was awarded a new series following a legal kick.

NCAA: Start it on the snap no matter what.

Definitely not a PSK foul as the foul as pointed out was a foul at the snap. This one might have been a good one to shut down unless players 12 and 13 were actually leaving the field at the snap.

Agree on clock status (NF)

Agree with dead Illegal substitution if no B (R) players are leaving the field. (NF)
IP if you do not catch it before the snap. (NF)

If 12 & 13 are trying to exit the field but do no make it, live ball illegal substitution which K will likely refuse and will also likely not like! Start the clock on the ready if accepted. (NF)

Thanks mikesears - I did not address that.

[Edited by dumbref on Nov 7th, 2005 at 09:53 AM]

mikesears · #5 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 07, 2005, 08:59am

Accept: A will again have ball with a 4th down and the clock will start on the RFP unless something else happened during the down to kill the clock. Clock was stopped for an official's timeout. After considering all acts that occured during the down, neither team was awarded a new series following the kick.

Decline. B's ball. Clock on the snap.

yankeesfan · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 07, 2005, 09:11am

Quote:

Originally posted by mikesears
Accept: A will again have ball with a 4th down and the clock will start on the RFP unless something else happened during the down to kill the clock. Clock was stopped for an official's timeout. After considering all acts that occured during the down, neither team was awarded a new series following the kick.

Decline. B's ball. Clock on the snap.

why 4th down? it was 4th and 10, a 15 yard penalty will give them a 1st down.

Gman34 · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 07, 2005, 09:41am

Illeg Sub is only a 5 yd penalty. If it was 4/10 it is now 4/5 after the 5 yd assesment.

yankeesfan · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 07, 2005, 10:48am

Quote:

Originally posted by Gman34
Illeg Sub is only a 5 yd penalty. If it was 4/10 it is now 4/5 after the 5 yd assesment.

i guess it was unclear whether there was participation on the play or not, it really did not say if they were running off the field or participating.

booker227 · #9 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 07, 2005, 11:05am

Since the play went off,(the snap) you have illegal participation on R during a loose ball play. (*any action leading up to a loose ball play is considered part of the play) The 15 yard penalty will be marked off at the preceeding spot, making it first and ten for K.

mikesears · #10 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 07, 2005, 12:42pm

Allow me to clarify my post. If the call is Illegal Sub, I stand by what I posted.

If the call is illegal participation, then the clock will start on the snap because K is awarded a new series following a legal kick play as a result of the yardage assessed for the penalty.

Theisey · #11 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 07, 2005, 01:06pm

Sorry, I thought it was 4th and 1 rather than 4th and 10. That will make a difference since an Ill-Sub foul is not going to give team-A a first down.

Ed Hickland · #12 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 07, 2005, 04:24pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Theisey
Status of the clock before the snap is not relevant.

NF: Start the clock on the SNAP because per rule, either team was awarded a new series following a legal kick.

NCAA: Start it on the snap no matter what.

Definitely not a PSK foul as the foul as pointed out was a foul at the snap. This one might have been a good one to shut down unless players 12 and 13 were actually leaving the field at the snap.

The status of the clock pre-snap has no effect on when to start the clock. The clock was stopped not by the penalty but by the awarding of a new series following a legal kick. Therefore, start on the snap regardless of accept or decline.

Cannot remember exactly what NFHS publication I read but we are suppose to kill the play before it starts, if, you complete your count before the snap. The foul would be incomplete substitution. However, if you cannot complete your count it becomes a live ball foul for illegal participation.

On live ball foul: accept, 15-yards from the previous spot with possession retained by K. Decline. Result of the play.

Dead ball foul: Five yards from succeeding spot.

mcrowder · #13 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 07, 2005, 04:29pm

Still waiting for you guys in the wrong on this one to show me ANY spot in the rulebook that says "Start the clock on the snap based on the reason you stopped it in the first place." The reason we stopped it is IRRELEVANT. The book (both yours and mine) tell us when to start the clock on the ready and when on the snap, and NONE of the various choices has ANYTHING to do with the reason the clock was stopped. NOT ONE.

ljudge · #14 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 07, 2005, 10:07pm

OK, well here goes. In the play stated this happened on Saturday. There was no illegal sub being made so we had no dead-ball foul. The R coach decided he wanted to swap out about 3 or 4 guys with time running out on the play clock and the mass substitution looked like a fire drill. The LJ, HL, and BJ were trying to count B players while they were running on and off the field. When the play went off we had ~13 players on the field and still out in the middle of the field (in other words, they weren't anywhere near the sideline but moving in that direction).

The wings and BJ had rags for live-ball illegal participation. Team K punted the ball where I had a "chop-in." I still stayed with that mechanic even though I was certain an IP was called (and I think I should have any way). We spotted the ball, then I gave penalty options to K. Of course K accepted. We awarded K the ball 15 yards in advance of the previous spot. I started the clock with the snap because it was the start of a new series following a legal scrimmage kick.

[Edited by ljudge on Nov 7th, 2005 at 10:52 PM]

MJT · #15 (**permalink**) Tue Nov 08, 2005, 12:09am

Quote:

Originally posted by ljudge
OK, well here goes. In the play stated this happened on Saturday. There was no illegal sub being made so we had no dead-ball foul. The R coach decided he wanted to swap out about 3 or 4 guys with time running out on the play clock and the mass substitution looked like a fire drill. The LJ, HL, and BJ were trying to count B players while they were running on and off the field. When the play went off we had ~13 players on the field and still out in the middle of the field (in other words, they weren't anywhere near the sideline but moving in that direction).

The wings and BJ had rags for live-ball illegal participation. Team K punted the ball where I had a "chop-in." I still stayed with that mechanic even though I was certain an IP was called (and I think I should have any way). We spotted the ball, then I gave penalty options to K. Of course K accepted. We awarded K the ball 15 yards in advance of the previous spot. I started the clock with the snap because it was the start of a new series following a legal scrimmage kick.

[Edited by ljudge on Nov 7th, 2005 at 10:52 PM]

Your clock status was correct if you called IP, as rule 4-3-c states "The clock shall start with the snap or when any free kick is touched, other than first touching by K, if the clock was stopped because: c. Either team is awarded a new series following a legal kick."

Now even though the B players were in the middle of the field, if they were trying to get off but were not not at the snap, you could argue IS instead of IP. I have no problem with the IP since they were in the middle, but since if they were running to get off, and never got involved in the play, you could go with IS. I have no problem with either, but on my crew we have stated that we will go with IS if they are running to get off if they never participate. Now if they stop and even look at the play it would be IP for sure.