Deadball personal fouls

[alabamabluezebra]

After a down has ended, you have a dead ball personal foul of both A and B. Since these fouls do not offset, do you mark them both off in order of occurrence, even if the result brings the ball back to the original spot?

[James Neil]

You sure do. I don't have my "book” with me so I can’t give the rule referance but you've used almost the exact wording the Fed's use. Enforce them both in their order of occurrence. Even if you end up at the same yardage I believe it helps the sidelines to fully understand what and why these fouls were called.

[whaddayouknow]

Originally posted by alabamabluezebra
After a down has ended, you have a dead ball personal foul of both A and B. Since these fouls do not offset, do you mark them both off in order of occurrence, even if the result brings the ball back to the original spot?

For our organization, we do when it comes back to the same spot. The first one is signalled and then marked off. Then the opposite one is signalled and marked off. That is whether it ends up at the same spot or not. If we do not know who committed the first foul, then it is not marked off.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by alabamabluezebra
After a down has ended, you have a dead ball personal foul of both A and B. Since these fouls do not offset, do you mark them both off in order of occurrence, even if the result brings the ball back to the original spot?

We will not march anything off, as the penalties offset.

What is the thought process for them not offsetting?

[Snake~eyes]

Originally posted by JugglingReferee

We will not march anything off, as the penalties offset.

What is the thought process for them not offsetting?

I don't really know of a good explanation. Maybe it is to give the idea that no foul goes unpunished. Not really sure.

It gets bad when you're like on the 10. For example, 1st and 10 on B's 10. Say we had USC against B then A. Well you go half the distance to B's 5 and then 15 out, so you end up at B's 20.

[SouthGARef]

The reason you mark off both penalties in NFHS is for a couple of reasons:

1) A's ball, 3rd and 8 from Bs 9 yard line. A throws an incomplete pass, and after the play you have a late hit on B. Reacting to the late hit by B, A1 slugs B5.

These dead ball fouls will be enforced in order of occurrence. Since B's happened first, you mark off half the distance to the 4 and then mark off the 15 yards vs. A. So the ball would actually be moved back in the long run to the 19.

2) A's ball, 3rd and 1 from the B 45. Incomplete pass, then B5 slugs A1... followed by A4 slugging B7.

You would mark off the USC on B first, which would put you past the first down line... giving A a first down. Then you would mark the 15 yard USC against A. So you would have 1st & 10 for A from the 45. Be prepared to hear lots of disagreement from B's sideline, but you have to mark off the dead ball fouls IN FULL, even awarding 1st downs.


Or at least, that's the way it's been explained to me down in South Georgia.

[Theisey]

Originally posted by James Neil
You sure do. I don't have my "book” with me so I can’t give the rule referance but you've used almost the exact wording the Fed's use. Enforce them both in their order of occurrence. Even if you end up at the same yardage I believe it helps the sidelines to fully understand what and why these fouls were called.

assuming NF, 10-2-4. which also says to NOT couple one of these with live-ball fouls.

NCAA will handle it differently as fouls may be cancelled

[JugglingReferee]

SGA,

I don't see any reasons here. I only see situations.

Originally posted by SouthGARef
The reason you mark off both penalties in NFHS is for a couple of reasons:

1) A's ball, 3rd and 8 from Bs 9 yard line. A throws an incomplete pass, and after the play you have a late hit on B. Reacting to the late hit by B, A1 slugs B5.

These dead ball fouls will be enforced in order of occurrence. Since B's happened first, you mark off half the distance to the 4 and then mark off the 15 yards vs. A. So the ball would actually be moved back in the long run to the 19.

In our code, ignoring the fact that a late hit is 15y + A1D and a "slug" could be 25y + DQ but is at least 15y, it is 4th and 8 from the 9 (offsetting URs).

Is the reason for administering both (in the order of occurance) because they want to deter retaliation fouls?

We have a rule that when applying a foul that has restrictions (going half-the-distance), if the LTG or GL is reached, we award a 1D. Does this not happen in Fed?

Originally posted by SouthGARef
2) A's ball, 3rd and 1 from the B 45. Incomplete pass, then B5 slugs A1... followed by A4 slugging B7.

You would mark off the USC on B first, which would put you past the first down line... giving A a first down. Then you would mark the 15 yard USC against A. So you would have 1st & 10 for A from the 45. Be prepared to hear lots of disagreement from B's sideline, but you have to mark off the dead ball fouls IN FULL, even awarding 1st downs.

In this example, both parties are equally guilty, and A's act is a retalitory act, yet they are benfitting is the end. Is that right?

The applications of the rule do not seem to be consistent.